ATN podcast: Breaking ties
5
Nov
2007
Nov
2007
Confused by tiebreakers? Oh yeah, definitely understandable. See, each conference sets its own rules for breaking ties for the automatic bid, and with the limited number of games played in any given football season, there’s not exactly a lot of data to work with.
So this week, in the Around the Nation podcast, Keith McMillan and Pat Coleman not only run down how the remaining 10 conferences’ automatic bids will be handed out, they run through the tiebreakers in leagues where they’ll be needed, and debate the merit of such tiebreakers in the first place. So get your primer on how the E8 or LL or MIAA will be won.
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November 5th, 2007 at 11:38 am
Great podcast.
Another rivalry game that has some playoff significance is Thomas More at Mount St Joseph, the Bridge Bowl Game.
MSJ is 8-1 overall, 8-1 in-region and 6-1 in the HCAC. They have a good win over IWU, which is contending for the CCIW Pool A bid.
The HCAC is 1-8 in post-season play since the start of the Pools. This is one year that an HCAC school might be able to get a Pool C bid, considering how the one-loss teams are dropping like flies.
November 5th, 2007 at 11:47 am
True. But it’s been played about 50 times fewer than Cortaca and 90-100 times fewer than HSC/RMC, Monon Bell and Amherst/Williams, the ones we mentioned.
November 5th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
You summed up the St. Olaf-Carleton mess nicely. It would be nice if STO would own up or explain, but not likely.
November 5th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
At face, I couldn’t agree with you more on the 85 points put up by Ole; however, within context I think its getting a bit more scrutiny (relatively) than it deserves for several reasons. However, the specific reasons mentioned in the podcast why it was unsportsmanlike, were the following.
1. “Oles scored 28 points in the 4th Qtr,” The last 7 were scored by an INT for a touchdown, so now we’re down to 21. On 2 of the 3 touchdown drives there were 0 or 1 pass attempt and the 1 was by the backup QB in a drive that started with over 10 minutes left in the 4th. In terms of scoring on those drives, they were on short fields due to turnovers and there were several long runs. Whos fault is that?
2. “Passing late in the game — specifically the one long pass to Gant from Penz”
The pass in question came with 12:41 left in the 4th. I admit, it was not a run and catch, it was a deep throw. You CAN blame the coach for calling a pass (but I’d suggest you can find hundreds of other instances of coaches calling pass plays this late in the game up this many — if you want I can show you SJU stat sheets). However, you can’t blame the coach for who the QB threw to or which route was thrown. If you know something about modern passing games you know against cover 2 press your outside receivers convert almost every route to a fade or side-pocket (see colts/pats game last night). This appears to be what happened. Meidt likely did call the pass, but Carleton’s defense dictated which route was thrown and you CANNOT blame the QB for executing.
Should the starting QB have been in for this drive? Maybe, maybe not. How many QB’s did the Oles travel to Carleton — 2. How many games does Penz have left to play in his life? 1. Personally, I would give my left nut to play in one more quarter.
My first reaction when I see scores like this is the same as I’ve read on Post Patterns and heard on the podcast; however, being at the game I feel obligated to give some additional color around the circumstances that led to the 85 points. Also, note that the Carleton QB threw for over 300 yards in the first half and shred our defense to put Carleton up 21-7.
November 5th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
While you have people looking at St. John’s boxes I’ll send people to Mount Union boxes to see how they handle blowouts. Lots of intentionally running out of bounds, lots of starters on the bench, lots of field goals early in downs.
Not sure why we have to accept a 30-yard INT return for a TD as an automatic (fourth TD of fourth quarter). Not sure a 67-yard drive is considered a short field (second TD of fourth quarter).
November 5th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
Not sure “intentially running out of bounds” is the best thing to do.
If you’re suggesting that a coach can/should stop a senior DB who rarely plays from returning (assuming) the only INT of his career for a touchdown, I don’t agree with you.
I have the utmost respect for Coach Kehres (sp?) and by all accounts he always does the right thing, but if he really is taking every precaution not to run it up how do you even score 73 vs. Capital in ‘99. If scoring too many points is such a concern, than why even kick a field goal? Why not just turn it over on downs? The point I guess I’m trying to make is that sometimes the score gets out of hand beyond the coaches control. You still have to let your players play. Its all in context. In a game where the Carleton QB threw for almost 350 yards in the first half and where Carleton was leading 21-7, I think context would suggest that “securing” the game (although clearly did not require 85) took additional effort than your typical blowout.
November 5th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
“(but I’d suggest you can find hundreds of other instances of coaches calling pass plays this late in the game up this many — if you want I can show you SJU stat sheets)”
Wahoo,
You tried this argument on the MIAC board. In your very own example, SJU’s starter took a seat at halftime, while STO’s was throwing long in the fourth. And the longest completion of the 2nd half by SJU was 13 yards — nothing downfield. Several runs were longer.
What’s worse having No. 2s and 3s running short plays all second half or a starter throwing long in the 4th? Seems an easy question.
November 5th, 2007 at 3:30 pm
wahoo — they do that too.
M 1-G A14 Zac Angel rush for 4 yards to the AUF10 (KNOWLES, Kenny;BELL, Allen).
M 2-G A10 Scott Thomas rush for 3 yards to the AUF7 (GLENN, Quincey;MCCAULEY,
Justi).
M 3-G A07 TEAM rush for loss of 2 yards to the AUF9.
M 4-G A09 TEAM rush for loss of 2 yards to the AUF11.
November 5th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
Why didn’t they take a loss on 1st and 2nd down as well, what are they trying to prove by gaining yardage? I’m sure they would have won if they didn’t gain those yards.
The point is, where do you draw the line?
Against Augsburg, the Johnnies were playing at home — so I’d hope that all 9 of their QB’s played in that game. The Oles only travelled 2 to Carleton — due to injuries. Further, they were only up by 1 point at half time so I don’t think its likely that Penz was going to sit the whole second half.
See earlier post for why its not necessarily the coaches fault that his QB executed the play and threw it deep. The coach determines if its a run or a pass, after that its depends on what defense is run.
November 5th, 2007 at 3:58 pm
“Why didn’t they take a loss on 1st and 2nd down as well, what are they trying to prove by gaining yardage?”
Please. That’s a ridiculous question, and I know you know it. Spare us the rhetoric.
November 5th, 2007 at 6:04 pm
When’s the D3 NCAA tournament selection show scheduled to be broadcast?
11/11 @ what time?
November 5th, 2007 at 6:11 pm
Just got this this morning: 11:30 a.m. ET. Early morning for Whitworth and the SCIAC runners-up to see if they get in.
November 5th, 2007 at 6:16 pm
Thx Pat. On ESPN2 or ESPNews?
November 5th, 2007 at 6:22 pm
Labart,
ESPNU.
November 5th, 2007 at 7:03 pm
Thx Ryan. Too bad it got moved to the U, but I guess I understand the rationale.
November 5th, 2007 at 8:06 pm
And good old Comcast doesn’t give us ESPNU
November 5th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
Yep, I have the same problem here PA. I might have to go over to the Other Coleman’s place on Sunday morning to watch it. It’s part of the sports package on Comcast, right?
November 6th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
Little off subject, but I couldnt believe the results of the poll about what mount Union’s lowest margin of victory would be…They’ve allowed something ridiculous like 22 straight scoreless quarters in one of the toughest conferences in the land, and people think they’ll lose a regualr season game still? Wow
November 6th, 2007 at 12:44 pm
The poll doesn’t specify regular season game. Mount only has one of those left, after all.
November 6th, 2007 at 5:38 pm
Well, those folks are sure voting with their heart, as to what they hope will happen…and im sure they’d love to see it… but I dont see Mount losing unless its in Salem…I do think the games will start to get more competitive quick though once the playoffs get rolling…
November 6th, 2007 at 6:40 pm
ryancoleman
I have never looked into it. But it probably is. They just took the NFL channel and made that pay last month..
November 8th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Wahoo & crew,
I would like it if you visited the thread on Post Patterns, General Football called (creatively) Running Up The Score.
http://www.d3sports.com/post/index.php?topic=5459.0
(Sorry, I always mess up links on the Dose)
In any case, if you haven’t already, read or skim it from the beginning. It deals very throroughly with the different thought processes behind running it up, some specific instances, like the way Mount Union deals with it by kicking FGs on second down, etc.
It would probably lend some perspective to this discussion. Which, by the way, I already quoted over there.