Reactions to the bracket
Nov
2007
While Pat and Gordon were pretty darn close in their predictions, nailing 31 of 32 teams and missing on Whitworth (UW-Eau Claire made it instead), it’s clear we’d grown accustomed to the committee being fairly predictable.
Perhaps it’s because there was only one West Coast team in the field, but whatever the reason, they were anything but this time around. The bracket has been revealed, and some curveballs have been thrown.
Ithaca at Mount Union, Redlands at St. John’s and Widener at Case Western Reserve were among the matchups we did not see coming. You can throw Olivet at Central in there too. With the proximity of so many of the teams, the committee’s matchups did not hold to the regions. For years they have not had to, but often they simply shake out that way. In Saturday’s first round, we’ll have an East Region team at a North, a North at a West in two different brackets and two South Region teams who could have been moved to the East playing each other. And then Redlands flying halfway across the country … but still Texas vs. Texas.
Without further ado, the floor is open for your reactions.
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November 11th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
So moving UWW out of the West changes the bracket from one solid favorite to a five-team crapshoot: Central, Bethel, UWEC, SJU, Redlands all ought to feel blessed right now.
November 11th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
Ok—-see how weak Mt Unions bracket is——no wonder they get to the Stagg bowl every year——they never play anyone. The South bracket—–tell me, how do teams that are ranked lower than UMHB get a higher regional ranking——–they get corn-holed again—— every year and this time so does Trinity. I can’t believe that even Muhlenberg is seeded higher than UMHB——-good job guys. I will however give Mt Union their due—–they have been a tremedous football team and program which no other football program in any division can claim——–that’s good football! Do we see a possible rematch of Wesley and UMHB——3 yrs in a row——-will the result be the same or will we see the rematch that I am sure UMHB would like(Whitewater)
November 11th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
Just talked to Pat. He said that he spoke to prominent members of the committee and a couple of points they emphasized (I believe this is stuff you might have already heard if you watched the show on the U):
1) They wanted to be sure the four best teams each got No. 1 seeds. So I’m assuming that meant with Central and UW-Whitewater being West teams coming in after Mount Union, they didn’t want to make one of those teams a 2 and make some team in the South or East a 1 if they didn’t quite deserve it. This is something we’ve advocated for in the past in the ‘This should be changed next year’ section of the ATN Year in Review, although I’m sure this year’s situation, and not the column, influenced the change.
2) Earlier in the week, the committee’s preference for teams who have played strong schedules (including in strong conferences) was emphasized.
3) UW-Eau Claire did pass Whitworth in the criteria, apparently. We’ll have to take a closer look to determine why.
November 11th, 2007 at 12:54 pm
Looking forward to the playoffs finally starting. It is questionable how Mount Union is essentially hosting the East region and Capital being matched up with Whitewater. Someone tired of the OAC team success on the committee? The moving of seeds is humorous and would not have been such a spectacle if they kept the teams in region. Oh well, should still be fun despite any ineptitude from the committee. It’s playoff time … the way champions should be crowned. Good luck to all teams!
November 11th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
I must say, those are some interesting matchups. I look forward to seeing what UW-Whitewater can do against one of the other regions. I’ve never seen any OAC teams in person besides MUC, so I’m looking forward to this week’s game against Capital. Should be a good one.
November 11th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
Well, with St John’s loss to Bethel, wouldn’t UMHB have moved up a spot to number 4?—You have 2 teams(Wesley and Muhlenberg) ranked lower than UMHB but seeded higher—-is that for travel purposes????————So, in the situation you were talking about above, in order to prevent that, the committee will stick 2 Texas teams together but not 2 west teams together??????———–doesn’t make much sense.
November 11th, 2007 at 1:10 pm
Hey I like Prairie View’s thought—Capital out of region but not UMHB or Trinity———-whoever is on that committee should be canned———you guys couldn’t find your way out of a paper bag.
November 11th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
Apparently it takes an automatic bid for the NWC to get their conference champion into the bracket. Luckily that will take place next year, but for me that still does not explain the snubbing Whitworth (and the NWC) received this season. First off, the NWC has proven that it is one of the top tier conferences in all of D3 football year after year. They have produced national champions and teams with deep runs through the bracket throughout their history, not to mention recently with Pacific Lutheran winning the the title in 1999 and Linfield in 2004. Taking a runner-up from another conference seems unexplainable, regardless of their schedule or circumstances (UW-Eau Claire is 8-2, UW is 8-1). And just to point out that UW -Eau Claire lost to UW – River Falls, a WIAC team that lost pretty handily to NWC runner – up PLU.
I know there are plenty of deserving teams and the bracket could probably hold 64 playoff caliber teams and everyone could make a case for their favorites, but I can’t help but feel some biased towards the Eastern region slipping into this decision and maybe even some financially charged motivation. Whatever it is, it’s not right.
November 11th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
So the field is set, actually I think there are some very interesting matchups. Trying to get the supposed 4 best teams to beat in the semi-finals is a good idea. It looked like going into yesterady that St. John’s would have been one of the top four…but they lost. Finally the 4th top four had to come down to who was still undefeated. So when Central got one of the four that put two teams in one region togteher, so somebody had to move. Then as cheap as the NCAA is, that meant reducing airfaire…is that why Mount Union got moved and Whitewater also so everybody could bus? With only one team from the west, somebody had to fly in or out. The seedings don’t follow the normal path in the “Mount Union Bracket”…why is that?
November 11th, 2007 at 1:34 pm
For a change the Ithaca fans should be thanking Cortland for rolling over and giving the Bombers a new season, although it may be a short one. Long live the JUG.
November 11th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
wildcatfan,
Interesting that you think it matters how strong or “weak” Mount Union’s bracket is. They tend to play teams within 500 miles of them, just like everyone else in the playoffs. And considering that the past two years they had to go through Capital and Whitewater, who both ended up in the top 5 (if not 3) both times, the implication that they skate all the way to Salem is pretty off base. (St. John Fisher also finished last year No. 4, although I’ll acknowledge much of their ranking was based on how they fared at MUC in the semis).
Touchdown,
I think getting the four best teams to be 1 seeds is a great idea. I praise this year’s committee for thinking outside the box a little bit, or at least thinking a little differently than other committees in the past few years have.
If reduced airfare (not just reduced number of teams who had to fly) is a factor, I’d be interested to know why Redlands flies to St. John’s, as opposed to, say, Mary Hardin-Baylor. They aren’t much further from a major airport, flying from L.A. or Orange County, than St. John’s is. And they each had one loss to another playoff team. But then that would put Trinity on a plane. So I understand what factors the committee is up against, at least some of them, but I imagine in Texas they are going to see all the interesting matchups and still be ticked off that their two teams play each other. I wonder if Millsaps had got in this year would they have gone to UMHB now that we think the schools are officially 491 miles apart.
Not criticizing the committee, just wondering aloud … these are things we’ll have all week to think through and try to figure out their logic. And they only have overnight to really work on it, especially if you consider the Occidental game had major playoff implications and kicked off at 10 last night, Eastern Time.
November 11th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
Well one thing we all have to stop doing is thinking in terms of regions. Even we here at D3football.com even refer to them as West bracket, and while regions are a big part of the process (in-region games, Pool C selection), the brackets are NOT made by region. They are made with first-round matchups of less than 500 miles each (busing distance) in mind.
So Capital, Widener, Ithaca, etc. might be out of region, but they are within 500 miles of their first round opponent. UMHB and Trinity were not within 500 miles of any other D3 team, so although it’s annoying to the Texans, it’s a no-brainer given the guidelines the committee is given to work with.
Prairie View,
I don’t get why you think teams playing teams from other regions is such a negative. I take it you’re not a fan of a team from the West, where they constantly complain they have a strong region to battle out of.
What’s wrong with balanced brackets, teams playing teams they usually don’t play, etc.?
Eventually, if you’re the best team, you’re going to have to go through the strongest teams anyway. There’s an argument there, but not a very good one.
Are some of you folks commenting sure you even know how things work? Seeds are frequently “mismatched” and aren’t required to be matched. They’re basically for determining home games in later rounds, not for affecting first-round matchups.
I don’t think this is a botch job at all, on first glance. I love the committee taking advantage of the fact that it doesn’t have to put a team against the team next door. Also, with so many rematches to avoid (Empire 8, ACFC, OAC, WIAC) that might have forced some of the bracket creativity.
November 11th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
Same number of first-round flights if Whitworth is in or out, Westregionrespect. And yes, the only automatic bid is an actual automatic bid — there’s no guarantee any conference gets a team in without one.
November 11th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
From Charlotte airport, for D3football.com, I’m Pat Coleman.
November 11th, 2007 at 2:08 pm
I for one, welcome MUC into the East. Hey, if we ever want to live down “being the weakest region” as everyone keeps saying, why not try and topple the kings of the mountain?
November 11th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
Central’s a paper tiger, it’s a Bethel – St. John’s rematch for all the marbles in the West
November 11th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
st. john fisher gave mount a heck of a game last year, so i’m not convinced it’s a walk for MUC.
November 11th, 2007 at 2:22 pm
Well BUDDY——–MUC has pitched 6 straight shutouts————either they have a heck of a defense or as I said before, they have a really weak schedule. I am a UMHB fan but pulling for the Cards in that one.
November 11th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
So as a Redlands alum, I am disappointed again to see the West Coast disrespected in terms of playoff berths. But no matter, St. Johns’ is toast anyhow.
November 11th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
I applaud the committee for getting the most balanced matchups possible. The only teams happier than the North (and in particular Wabash) should be the West. I look forward to matchups we haven’t seen. It will be great fodder for conference and regional comparison all next year. It also rewards strong regions with multiple high quality teams.
November 11th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
I’m the color commentator for Bombers Football on Ithaca College Television, and I’ve got a couple of questions for Pat: Obviously, everyone in Ithaca is excited about winning the Cortaca Jug yesterday, especially since it propelled the Bombers into the playoffs. Why do you think the selection committee was willing to take three Empire 8 teams? Most of of the broadcasters and writers here thought Hartwick’s win over Utica would block an IC at-large bid. And, of course, do they have any shot against the Purple Raiders? Thanks.
November 11th, 2007 at 2:33 pm
From one standpoint, this bracket certainly hurts UMHB. It only guarantees them one home game. Unless I am looking it wrong. That is ridiculous. They are ranked 5th and 6th in various polls, yet are ranked 4th. This whole process does not make any sense. It seems the committee does not agree with the rankings of D3Football.com and the AFCA or the only thing the NCAA committee cares about is its precious travel budget. Why not give UMHB a higher seed and Trinity a lower one….just a thought.
November 11th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
D3 Keith, that is not at all the case. I have no problem with teams playing “out of region” but let’s face the FACTS, Mount Union is far closer to the teams like Wabash, Case Western, etc. than they are Ithaca, RPI, etc. Since we all know it comes down to dollars and travel, it makes more sense to keep it regional. Or, at the very least, not call it the Mount Union bracket. Each region is tough year in and year out, not just the West. Bottom line, though, they settle it on the field and that is what is best for Division III football. I like that … A LOT!
You imply the brackets are never balanced but when these teams only typically play each other in the playoffs, you make assumptions on ranking, OWP, etc. Lots of theorizing but little substantial argument to base things on. Thus, maybe this new “scheme” will work for this year. Should be fun.
Conflicting statement, Keith. Are these balanced brackets or not? Or do balance and matched mean different things? No offense to you. You and Pat do an AWESOME job with this site and keeping us up to date with Division III football. That’s why we banter about this, because we LOVE it. Again, best of luck to ALL teams! May the best team win!
November 11th, 2007 at 2:39 pm
It would be pretty stupid to think MUC has a weak schedule. If you want your team to get their shot, just go ahead and win all your playoff games and you will get to see up close if its their schedule or their defense. and by the way, they have a decent offense too!
November 11th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
Ok, I think I figured out “matched” with the 1 vs. 6 or 2 vs. 5 thing. But again, easier to keep those pairings “matched” if you keep it regional. And I agree about UMHB and Trinity, this committee cannot seem to figure out how to separate them from a first-round matchup. Pathetic.
November 11th, 2007 at 2:45 pm
“And just to point out that UW -Eau Claire lost to UW – River Falls, a WIAC team that lost pretty handily to NWC runner – up PLU.”
It’s rough not to the NWC team in there, but it’s a stretch to triangulate that kind of comparative argument. Whitworth’s certainly better than more than a few teams in the field.
UWEC also beat a 7-3 NAIA playoff team and a d2 team in its NC sked. Whit lost to a non-NAIA playoff team as well as a d3 team without much of a playoff pedigree.
In the end, not having the AQ (yet) bit a pretty good team. But then I don’t feel too bad for 509 …
November 11th, 2007 at 2:46 pm
Hey USee—-that’s what I am hoping for. Afterall, UMHB is 1-0 vs MUC REMEMBER???????? 38-35 at the MUC as well———hopefully we will get that opportunity. If there is a rematch of UWW and UMHB, I don’t think it will be the same result.
November 11th, 2007 at 2:52 pm
I think UWW really got screwed by this bracket. At first glance, the UW-Whitewater Bracket is easily the most difficult, and I agree with those that have said MUC’s bracket is a cakewalk.
I still expect to see UWW-MUC v3.0 in Salem, but Whitewater might take some bruises along the way.
I have to say that I’m stunned that UWEC made it into the bracket, but pleasantly surprised. I think year in-year out, the WIAC is one of the toughest, if not the toughest conference to win, and I figured a one loss WIAC team (loss to UWW) would be a LOCK each year to get in, but i figured the very bad loss to UW-River Falls would keep UWEC out.
Interesting to note that Wisconsin got four teams in (SNC, UWEC, Concordia, and UWEC) It will be nice to see either SNC or UWEC actually get a win in the playoffs. Poor SNC had run into the Whitewater buzzsaw the last four years and I’m sure they are glad to avoid that.
I think if we swap out Central (for Whitewater), and switch the bracket placements, this would have been fair, but I guess I can live with it. I’m just frustrated that Central and MUC have a “cakewalk” until they meet in the Semis.
If Whitewater wins narrowly (or loses) to Capital, i’ll have alot of respect for the OAC, but if Whitewater wins by its usual playoff margin (of 30-40 points), I think that will definitely put into perspective how weak MUC’s schedule is.
Based on SOS, (if you take out UWW’s division 2 loss (which shouldn’t count anyways), i think there is a very real/clear argument that UW-Whitewater should be the #1 overall seed this year.
November 11th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
I really hope that we can have a prolonged mp3 summary by Pat on the football selections like we do for Hoopsville!
I think that we fans are now ready for it.
And, I would hope he can get a sponsor for it as well!
November 11th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
wildcatfan,
you should be careful what you wish for. if you can’t even stay within spitting distance of UWW what makes you think you will even come close to this year’s muc team? I am not an OAC guy but i’ll take the other side of that wager. UHMB is a fine program and team but you should really worry about surviving your bracket than throwing mud on a national championship team’s schedule.
November 11th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
Hey USee—no disrespect to MUC—–I give them their due! I just don’t think the UWW-UMHB rematch would be the same outcome. Umhb had what 5 or 6 turnovers in that game–can’t give the ball up that many times to a good team and expect to win——-I just think UMHB is a much better team than what they showed that day—–and I agree, they will have to prove that. Just give them a little credit, they have a much better record against the MUC that UWW.
November 11th, 2007 at 3:12 pm
As a long time Tiger fan, and I do mean when Obert Logan was playing, I am glad to see I am not the only one who thinks Trinity is getting ripped off. The Tigers were ranked 14 in the last D3 poll which suggests a 4 regional seed. Instead they are seeded 6. Mary Hardin-Baylor was a top four team all year until they took their only loss. This drops them to a 4 seed? And of course since Trintiy and MHB are the only teams within 500 miles of each other they have to play in the first round.
Keith says that the good teams have to play each other eventually, but if you are a top 15 team, matched in the first round against a team that should be in the top 4 you never get a chance to show what you can do. This hurts in recruiting.
I think its not so much that we don’t understand the criteria as that we think Division III has matured to the point where the need to travel by bus should not be the controlling consideration.
November 11th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
Good thinking labart96 and Usee, re: Mount Union.
As far as the NWC snub, I agree on the most basic point: I would put Whitworth (the NWC champ) into the field. I just cast my top 25 vote, and Whitworth was on there.
BUT, past playoff history is not official criteria. In other words, if you go to another team and say “Well, we took Whitworth because teams in their conference won titles three and eight years ago,” it’d be their right to call BS on that. Whitworth didn’t help itself with the loss to Redlands (although at least they made the playoffs) and the other non-conference games. The loss to Asuza Pacific isn’t supposed to hurt, but if you’d been able to get another good D3 opponent on the schedule instead, another win would’ve helped.
Regarding Eau Claire, the teams did have a common opponent in UW-Stout, but the results were a wash.
The in-region winning percentage favored Whitworth over UWEC by a lot, although the OWP and OOWP favored UWEC. I’m not sure if that’s what the committee saw that the rest of us didn’t, but that doesn’t seem like enough.
Regarding East Coast bias, I think that’s what people on the West Coast say whenever they don’t get their way. In D3, it makes no sense. Of the 225+ playoff-eligible schools, 16 are West of the Rockies. So I don’t need to do the math to see that the proper proportion (1, Redlands) got in.
But that’s not how they playoff field is chosen anyway, so it’s a silly for me to even engage in that discussion.
The membership of Division III, who (in an effort to save on travel costs — it’s not just the NCAA that likes to watch what it spends) set the emphasis on in-region wins as playoff criteria. The membership’s rules are what the committee goes by to select its field. So teams on the West Coast and Texas (and for different reasons, the WIAC) have a hard time scheduling D3 opponents. The in-region rules were relaxed a few years ago to help in this situation.
All but Azusa ended up being in-region games for Whitworth, so you’d be better off focusing your beef on why Whitworth had an 8-1 in region record and UW-Eau Claire was 5-2 than claims of “East” bias. All the East teams that made it were projected in the field by D3football.com, so it’s pretty safe to assume that’s who stole your bid.
And as you noted, everyone who is on the bubble has a pretty good argument, and this will be a non-issue next season as the NWC’s AQ kicks in. And I imagine it’ll be really welcome.
November 11th, 2007 at 3:45 pm
Playoffs, Playoffs… Are you kidding me, Playoffs???… LoL… Comic Relief… Welcome to the East Mt. Union, where you have hungry teams trying to de-throne you… Will it happen? I don’t know, teams everywhere have been trying to do that for years…
November 11th, 2007 at 3:50 pm
MUC has been feeding the hungry for a number of years. As a frequent dinier at the alliance buffet I recommend you bring a bib, it can get messy.
November 11th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
In case anyone is wondering, here are the members of the National Selection Committee:
AD Al Dorenkamp Central College (Iowa) Iowa Intercol. Athletic Conf.
Associate Professor/Head Fooball Coach Christopher Smith Grove City College Presidents’ Athletic Conference
CCD, Associate AD / Head Football Coach Norman Eash Illinois Wesleyan University College Conference of Illinois & Wisconsin
Commissioner Kenneth Andrews Middle Atlantic States Collegiate Athletic Corp. Middle Atlantic States Collegiate Athletic Corp.
Director of Men’s Athletics, Compliance Director Dick Kaiser Defiance College Heartland Collegiate Athletic Conference
Head Coach Football Steve Mohr Trinity University (Texas) Southern Collegiate Athletic Conference
Head Football Coach Michael C. Maynard University of Redlands Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conf.
Head Football Coach Michael DeLong Springfield College New England Women’s & Men’s Athletic Conference
November 11th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
MUC has been feeding ON the hungry for a number of years!
What is the minimum margin of victory by MUC in the first three games?
28? 35? 42?? 49???
I think that is another question for the front page poll!
November 11th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
Long time first time.
I appreciate D3Keith’s measured response regarding Whitworth getting hosed, but it really hurts to see the kind of season this team had, particularly with their phenomenal defense (notice that turnover margin, anyone?), and not get to see these seniors play at least one more game.
It seems that Linfield has earned significant national respect coming out of our conference, yet a hard-fought win against them wasn’t enough to do any more than take the Wildcats out of the spotlight for another season.
NWC fans, it is tough to sit and wait until next year, but there will be plenty of post-season glory for our Northwest boys in seasons to come.
By the way, a column on this site referred to the Whitworth footballers as the Rats, a nickname I have never heard in my 25 years supporting Whitworth. Go Bucs!
November 11th, 2007 at 4:00 pm
LoL, good point Ralph… I was thinking the same thing… Couldn’t even vote b/c I didn’t see the numbers as feasible haha
November 11th, 2007 at 4:07 pm
Who’s in the Stagg bowl this year?
November 11th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
The big winner, SJU.
November 11th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
Hey, I don’t have much of problem with Trinity travelling to UMHB, even though I think they’d match up better against Muhlenberg. 4 hosting 6 is a lot better than 1 hosting 3 or whatever comedy the NCAA has subjected us to in the past, and you could make an argument that UMHB should be seeded 3, not 4, in which case this is the exact matchup that should have happened.
November 11th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
I agree Ron—-UHMB should have been seeded number 3 to begin with. After sorting through all of this, guess it doesn’t do any good to gripe about the traveling issue–it is always going to be there and if a team is that good, they will beat whoever they face, no matter the circumstances.
November 11th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
Must be playoff time cause I am back!!! Look for UWW over MU this year big! No way they beat UWW three years in a row. Rest of the teams are Roadkill.
November 11th, 2007 at 5:16 pm
OK, fine I will be the sacrificial lamb for the East: The OAC is overrated…MUC is undeniably great and the rest of the conference just happens to be in MUC’s conference. I understand that MUC beats EVERYONE, but Capital and Ohio Northern, who were highly ranked teams this year (and Cap. most years) didnt even breath against MUC this year.
I was just having a conversation with a former teammate of mine last week: that if MUC had to mentally and physically prepare for the likes of Hobart, RPI, SJF, IC, Cortland, etc every week (just look at Brockport’s schedule every year in the East), they would get ‘dinged up’ here and there and it would wear on them. Instead of preparing for a game every week, MUC’s third string QB and RB are probably debating eachother about who is going to score more second-half TD’s…lol.
MUC would likely still win just about every game for a while, but the wear and tear each week would eventually catch-up to them. They would also have a bigger competition for the H.S. talent in the East. This of course is all hypothetical because, MUC isnt packing up and moving to the East any time soon….yet the EAST can put their money where my ‘MOUSE’ is starting next Saterday!!!
I told ya last year not to underestimate SJF in the Final Four…and SJF only trailed by 5 with 7 minutes to go. Now I see a few posters are already ‘laughing’ at MUC’s East Region competition. Well, for the next 4 weeks, MUC will not be playing the same old ‘one and dones’ they play every year at this time! They will have to get through a hot IC team, and possibly RPI and SJF.
If and/or when MUC steamrolls the East, I will take the heat for this….that is ok, I look forward to the East’s opportunity to bring some heat of their own!
GO ITHACA!!!
November 11th, 2007 at 5:16 pm
You can watch Pat’s preview by going to
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/espnu/index
The D3 Playoff preview is one of the videos listed on the right (sorry, no direct link). You do have to sit through a commercial first.
November 11th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
SJF,
Great post. I was going to write one too, but you said everything I wanted to say and them some.. Great post man…
November 11th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Interesting that the D2 championship will be on ESPN2 while the Stagg will be on the Sports Leader itself (ESPN). Take that D2 guys !!
November 11th, 2007 at 5:39 pm
I think this is the year that the NEFC makes it out of the first round. Curry matches up well with Harwick. The key for Curry is to score points here. I don’t know if Hartwick can be stopped on offense, so Curry has to be able to get the ball in the end zone, which they can do seeing they averaged 41.5 ppg.
November 11th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
sjff82,
Love the intensity you still have 13 years after you hung the cleats up! Couldn’t agree more with your sentiments. Go Bombers!
November 11th, 2007 at 6:18 pm
Good luck to all the teams. If I may be so bold, part of Mount Union’s success is because they respect their opponent and take nothing for granted. What happened last year, last week or even the last play has no bearing on what happens next. I’m sure LK will have the team focused and ready to give their best effort Saturday against a great Ithaca program that has 7 Stagg Bowl appearances (and 3 championships).
November 11th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Thanks sjfc1993…you weren’t so ‘un-intense’ yourself!!!
November 11th, 2007 at 6:21 pm
“I was just having a conversation with a former teammate of mine last week: that if MUC had to mentally and physically prepare for the likes of Hobart, RPI, SJF, IC, Cortland, etc every week (just look at Brockport’s schedule every year in the East), they would get ‘dinged up’ here and there and it would wear on them.”
—
Did I miss the fantasy font? Just the latest in alibis in why the East hasn’t won a Stagg since …. when? Or made the Stagg this millennium.
Shoot, the OAC even sent its No. 2 team East a few years back and they won the region. And look what’s happened when East teams have played the West in the semis — they added “monkeystomp” to the Western lexicon but not in a good way.
The idea that an East team can’t win the Stagg because they beat each other up is outrageous. There might be balance in the East but that doesn’t mean elite quality.
November 11th, 2007 at 6:22 pm
I like that Mount will hopefully get to see some different foes this time around…I disagree that the OAC is overrated as a whole..this year, I think so..just not as strong…in past years, pretty darn strong….Cap took us all the way to the wire the last two years in the tourney…and I say if the bracket was different, last year’s Cap team could have given UWW a run of its own if they had met up…I still dont think its out of the possibility of Cap giving UWW a game in round 1 but I think would take an extraordnary defensive effort on Caps part..and probably some help from UWW too….
Id love nothing more than to sit here and debate all the MUC comments made on here…some of them valid, some of them rediculous – but I believe the play of the 07 version of the Purple Raiders this playoff season is about to do all the talking that is required…One game, one opponent at a time…
November 11th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
And I agree. whoever ends up in Salem – its great that they’ll be on ESPN this year…
November 11th, 2007 at 6:44 pm
I’ll be on WICB momentarily to discuss the playoffs.
http://www.wicb.org/
November 11th, 2007 at 7:02 pm
i think this is the best mount team yet – it will be shocking if they don’t win it. but as in any sport, crazy stuff happens. that’s what makes it fun to follow the games.
November 11th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
All I have to say about the selections and brackets is this…quit your whining! Whoever it is, Mount will meet you in Salem and then show us what you got and see if it’s good enough to win the title!
~Roll Raiders Roll~
November 11th, 2007 at 7:13 pm
As a new fan to D3 … nice to see spirited commentary and support for each school/region as the play-offs begin. Might be time to talk about the HCAC and the success this year of both Franklin and Mt.St.Joe. Franklin goes 9-1 back-to-back seasons – and overcomes the snub from a year ago to win conference and get in. MSJ deservedly gets in on 9-1 season – perhaps based on some of their history. The HCAC gets 2 in the tourney. Franklin’s lone loss — by a missed 2-point conversion AT Wabash, MSJ loses at home to Franklin. Could be a new conference to at least keep an eye on in the future ! Go GRIZ !!
November 11th, 2007 at 7:17 pm
and for the record, mount beat #9 at the time ohio northern 44-0 on the road, and #12 capital (once ranked as high as 5th) 37-0 on the road. they also beat baldwin-wallace, once ranked 10th, 35-0. and it beat john carroll, once ranked 24th, 53-0, on the road.
i think people tend to underestimate the ability of the teams mount plays just because mount beats them so badly. i just wish capital hadn’t had so many injuries; otherwise i think it would throw a scare into whitewater next week.
November 11th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
Here’s a direct link:
http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3105085
November 11th, 2007 at 7:45 pm
No doubt this may well be the best Mount Union team but the Bombers have put it together and the way they are playing, I will not be suprised if this game is much closer than many think.
And make no mistake, Fisher is a real contender. It’ll be fun.
November 11th, 2007 at 7:46 pm
repete – “elite quality” is certainly an interesting phrase (or an oxymoron) given that we’re talking about student-first D3 football!! “The idea that an East team can’t win the Stagg because they beat each other up is outrageous. There might be balance in the East but that doesn’t mean elite quality”.
My third grade son is far superior on the basketball court than his little buddies………that doesn’t make him “elite quality” relative to the competition (now, on the other hand, if he turns out to be truly “elite quality”, he will get a D1 scholarship and save his appreciative father $250,000 in college expenses!!).
My dream………After Mount wins the Stagg, they play the D2 champion to start next year (or finish this year) and take them to the woodshed like App State did to Michigan earlier in the year. In scheduling Michigan, App State “scheduled up” more than the Mount would in playing the D2 champ. Mount……make all of us D3 fanatics proud and go for it. You’ve got nothing to lose and would make an entire nation of D3 diehards very proud. What the heck is a Chadron State anyway?!
November 11th, 2007 at 7:52 pm
i would love to see mount take on a good D2 school close to alliance, such as ashland or one of the better pennsylvania schools.
won’t happen in the next 2 years, though. schedules are made up:
http://www.mtunionfootball.com/mtunionfootball/futureschedules.htm
November 11th, 2007 at 8:09 pm
Chadron State is in Nebraska and is a member of the Rocky Mountain Athletic Conference. You can almost see the Rockies from Chadron!
November 11th, 2007 at 8:11 pm
Just two commments to a couple posts:
WarhawkAlum05 said:
“I think UWW really got screwed by this bracket. At first glance, the UW-Whitewater Bracket is easily the most difficult, and I agree with those that have said MUC’s bracket is a cakewalk.”
FYI-maybe you should recheck out the ratings and ask yourself who has the better draw. I looked at the last poll (The last one out as of today) and here is what I see when it comes to ranked teams in each region. Sorry if I have omitted any ranked team.
MU Regional (3 ranked teams)
1) MU
6) St John Fisher
14) New Jersey
Central Regional (6 Ranked Teams)
3) St John’s
4) Central
16) Bethel
19) UW Eau Claire
22) St Norbert
24) Redlands
UWW Regional (4 Ranked Teams)
2) UWW
9) Wabash
17) Capital
18) Franklin
Wash and Jeff Regional (6 Ranked Teams)
Washington and Jefferson
5) Mary Hardin Baylor
7) Wesley
11) Salisbury
13) Trinity TX
15) Muhlenberg
Maybe UWW should feel fortunate to have had Central/St. John’s and Bethel moved out of their regional. In my opinion – Looks like UWW has one of the easier routes to the semis!
——————————————————————————————–
Nasedo Says:
“Central’s a paper tiger, it’s a Bethel – St. John’s rematch for all the marbles in the West”
I know comparative scoring is not always the best, but it is a gauge. I would like you to check out Central’s score against common opponent St. Thomas. Now compare it to their scores in relation to St. Thomas. Appears that Central handled St. Thomas at least as well if not better than either team. Also interesting how Bethel lost to IIAC middle of the pack team Buena Vista.
GO DUTCH
November 11th, 2007 at 8:18 pm
WOW wildcatfan I can’t believe you said what you did — If UWW played MHB 10 times in a row this year, UWW would win 9 of the 10 games. UWW Defense came out and just dominated. Your two running backs didn’t get squat that day. Is it because your team was forced into turning over the ball –it wasn’t just one bad day – every game would be a bad day. UWW defense forces other teams to make mistakes. This past week – 8 turnovers in favor of UWW. Last week UWW forces UW-Stout to make 6 turn overs. Week before that vs Stevens Point – more inteceptions and more fumbles. I have been to all of the games last year and this year – home and away. UWW defense can play against anyone. They are hard to run on and hard to pass on. When the big games happen – 18 defensive player show up as a group.
Were you at the Whitewater game — UWW defensive Line just dominated your offensive line — Especially in the first half. The defensive line and LB stopped your running game and forced your QB to throw the ball. He doesn’t have a great arm — so most of his passes were under thrown and was hurried or forced to throw off balance or before he got hit.
Your running backs didn’t have a field day against UWW because they finally had to play a real team.
You need to look at the records of all of the teams MHB plays — small schools and not too many of them have a winning record. Need to read or get your fact correct — check out each teams on MHB schedule — as a group they have a losing record. YES check it out.
Now, MHB may not be as bad as they were on that day in Whitewater but they are not as good as you think they are. I was at the game and I sure saw a dominating team have a great game. I think the better team (UWW) forced the turn overs — it wasn’t just a MHB bad day — and on another day it would have been different — I don’t think so.
UWW has played a number of ranked teams – La Crosse at the time was 6th, Eau Claire was ranked in the top 15 or so , Stevens Point was in the top 15 or so and MHB was ranked #2. So UWW deserves some respect — they have played some of the better teams in the country.
As far as MUC — they are the champs and they are the gold standard — don’t take anything away from their program. They don’t win year in a year out because they have a weak conference. Ohio area has a great history of producing some very good football players. MUC has to be respected.
They have very good athletes and they show up each and every game. They too force other teams to make mistakes and turn over the ball.
I saw it last year in the Championship game in Salem. UWW vs MUC. MUC did make UWW make mistakes. My hats off to them — don’t let anyone in the country say they have a cake walk. You have to beat them before you can say your better
Now I am a former Warhawk football 3 year starter – (many years ago) so for me to say MUC is the gold standard it has to be true. All of us other teams in the USA are just trying to beat them one time. Facts are facts — I say if your program is good – you have to beat them 2 to 3 times in a 5 year period. They you be considered the top dog. Right now – MUC is the top dog — we are all trying to get the opportunity to play them in Salem. Let the best teams get there — Good Luck.
November 11th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
Ralph – Honest opinion…..how would Mount Union do against a Chadron State, Grand Valley or a Youngstown State?
November 11th, 2007 at 8:49 pm
Prairie View says…
“but let’s face the FACTS, Mount Union is far closer to the teams like Wabash, Case Western, etc. than they are Ithaca, RPI, etc.”
Distance to Alliance:
Rochester, NY 283.7
Ithaca, NY 300.9
Geneva, NY 318.2
Oneonta, NY 401.5
Ewing, NJ 415.1
Rensselaer, NY 478.8
Milton, MA 626.2
Compared to some of teams from the traditional “North” region in this tournament:
Cincinnati, OH 271.2
Wabash, IN 300.9
Olivet, MI 309.9
Franklin, IN 355.6
Naperville, IL 438.5
Mequon, WI 518.9
I’ll give you that Case is closer than Ithaca, but Wabash is not. And as for RPI, North Central isn’t “far closer.” (All mileage found using mappoint.msn.com with the “Shortest Distance” option)
November 11th, 2007 at 9:29 pm
WarhawkAlum05 I would trade regions with you in a minute this year. Obviously you have little to no clue. And also, feel fortunate the Capital team you are playing is without it’s starting QB and best WR or I would give them a fighting chance. I would think considering the circumstances you should expect to win that game by 30 to 40 points.
November 11th, 2007 at 9:53 pm
i think widener lucked out by drawing the case matchup – i shudder to think what mount union would have done to them in alliance in the 1st round, maybe now at least we’ll get the shit beat out of us on national tv haha – don’t sleep on the pride, their defense is a LOCKDOWN squad and they can turn the game around in the blink of an eye. That coupled with the fact that Case hasn’t played in the playoffs in what 15 years?… Should be very interesting – don’t sleep on Widener, the Pride will make these playoffs very interesting – NOT JUST IN THE FIRST ROUND (Though, I’m still upset that they couldn’t have just been given a 7 seed, not have the forge through the bracket as an 8 seed)
November 11th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
WOW…….on this sacred day where we remember all of those who have served (or are serving) our country as well as all of those brave men and women who sacrificed their lives for our freedom…….let’s keep Division 3 football brackets and comments about “heads up a$$es”, in proper perspective at least through the close of the observation of Veterans Day tomorrow.
We’re extremely fortunate to be sitting in our warm homes, surrounded by our loved ones, with full bellies, debating the inane while our brothers and sisters are being brought home in boxes. I know, I’ve lost a few family members and friends over the past few years. Let’s have fun but keep it all in perspective. Especially at this level (which we all love)……it is not life and death!! No need for name calling. Opinions are like a$$$$$es…….we’ve all got one!!
November 11th, 2007 at 10:00 pm
amen to that
November 11th, 2007 at 10:11 pm
I mean this in the nicest way possible, but some folks out here could really use a clue.
SFFF82,
It’s nice that you think so highly of the Empire 8, but “if MUC had to mentally and physically prepare for the likes of Hobart, RPI, SJF, IC, Cortland, etc every week ” they’d still run through the conference.
I’d put the OAC’s top 5 up against anyone’s most years. The Empire 8 has really good depth too, so it’s no knock, but you really are kidding yourself if you believe Mount Union has any kind of weak conference slate. I see what you’re saying, the OAC’s other guys are overrated … I’d say they have their ups and downs like anyone else. If there were no Mount Union at the top, it would still be a pretty good conference.
I don’t feel like looking up the stat right now, but OAC teams are something like 12-1 in the playoffs when you take away games they play against Mount Union over the past several years. In other words, no matter where you put a team from the OAC (see John Carroll, East Region, 2002), they keep on winning until Mount Union knocks them out.
If you insist, I will look it up later in the week. And if your argument somehow becomes that the rest of the North Region is weak … I’ll just let the North Region folks handle that.
Fisher kept it close on the scoreboard last year, but Mount Union ran for 378 yards and attempted only 14 passes. A lot of people think they did whatever they wanted to, i.e. they didn’t pass because they didn’t have to.
Look, I’m with everyone here. No one likes to think of a team as super human. Mount Union is not that. They can be beaten. But I’ve observed D3football without a favorite team bias for several years now, and as glad as I am that Mount Union got Ithaca in the first round instead the 4-loss MIAA champ, I feel very comfortable saying that this is one of the best Mount Union teams ever, and anything less than a trip to Salem would involve an upset of monumental proportions.
But hey, it’s D3 baby … we get to play it out. Best of luck to you …
November 11th, 2007 at 10:31 pm
Widener fan(s),
I also mean this in the nicest possible way, but you should heed your own advice and be thankful for the matchup you got. Look at the other 1 and 2 seeds you possibly could have been matched against.
I really like what you guys did in scheduling this year, so I’m not going to sit here and knock you. But you also didn’t beat Wesley and you lost 41-0 to Rowan, a team that ended up losing 5 games. The NCWC win was nice.
Teams with that kind of resume, in Pool C, would have been on the bubble at best.
Widener did what it had to do to get the AQ, but please spare us the “no respect” and “slept on” stuff. The MAC was not a strong conference this year and Widener was not very dominant in it (the King’s and Lycoming scores jump out, among others)
Frankly, with a winnable first round game and possibly another in the second, you should be thankful that you avoid UW-Whitewater half of the bracket you got placed in and avoided the fate that everyone else in the East will have to suffer: going through Mount Union.
Widener made out pretty well. Perhaps as nicely as any 8 seed in memory, and I don’t see what being a 7 would have gotten you that this didn’t.
The great thing about the playoffs is that you have to beat good teams to move on, and as Bob Berezowitz (retired UW-W coach) says, your reward for beating a good team is to play a better one next week.
It’s got to be the most true test for great teams, since you not only need to play the game of your life once, you need to do it consistently for five weeks with no slip-ups.
November 11th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
dukefinadv.
Good evening!
I must defer to the comparative scores that we see with the WIAC.
I think that those D-2’s beat MUC by 14-20 points in most games.
Chadron is top seed in the Southwest Region for the D-2 playoffs.
November 11th, 2007 at 10:37 pm
Keith,
I don’t know if the 12-1 for other OAC teams in the playoffs against everyone except Mount is exactly right, but I’m sure it is very close. The CCIW’s 11-11 record in the playoffs consists of 0-8 vs. Mount, 1-3 vs. other OAC teams, and 10-0 vs. everyone else! The OAC would not be the #1 (or #2, depending on year-to-year with WIAC) conference without Mount, but they would STILL be top 5.
November 11th, 2007 at 10:39 pm
One thing I will add … even though I join in the banter, not always in the friendliest way, everyone’s opinion is welcome and appreciated. That’s what we’re here for.
Some of you have a total grasp on how things work and are very informed, some are just learning. I’m not a huge fan of really opinonated people who are sharing blunt opinions formed without key pieces of information, but it happens. I remember what it was like being on a team when you were basically brainwashed/convinced that your team is good enough to beat anyone and the teams you’ve played are as good as they get.
Since I spend the fall travelling the country, crunching numbers, etc., please believe me if I tell you they’re not; However, the beauty of football is that means nothing once the game kicks off. A “worse” team can beat a “better” team if it plays the right game on the right day. That’s the fun of the playoffs.
And this year’s bracket looks like it’ll be as much fun as any in recent memory.
November 11th, 2007 at 10:39 pm
Keith, thanks for all your comments. Earlier, you mentioned “3) UW-Eau Claire did pass Whitworth in the criteria, apparently. We’ll have to take a closer look to determine why.”
Have you been able to determine why yet? A team that loses two D3 games (one to a 3-7 team) and doesn’t even win its conference getting the nod over a team that won the NWC (actually ran through it unblemished) and lost one D3 game to a team that won its conference and is heading towards the dance??? I believe comments about what the NWC has achieved in its short history in D3 have already been mentioned so I won’t repeat it. Oh, and there was that Regional Ranking thing that had Whitworth ahead of UW-Eau Claire. Seriously, the exclusion of the NWC champ seems more than a little fishy to me. Were there potential economic advantages to keeping them out of the dance? After all, only having one West coast team and sending Redlands to SJU probably pretty much takes care of anyone having to travel to or from the West coast after that doesn’t it? What’s the scoop?
November 11th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
Ralph,
I was going to say the same thing about the D2 question, that we actually have D3 teams who play out of division and we have those results to work with.
I also watched a quarter of Abilene Christian while in Texas, and they’re a 9-2 playoff team … on the eye test they looked bigger and faster than any D3 I can think of.
FWIW.
November 11th, 2007 at 10:42 pm
Ypsi,
I can look up the stat and accompanying data. I know I have used it many times in ATN. The key is remembering when and what keyword will bring it up in a search.
In any case, back to work at my real job!
November 11th, 2007 at 10:46 pm
Since 1997 OAC teams other than MUC have a combined playoff record of 12-7. Six of those losses have come from MUC. A 12-1 playoff record from the OAC second place team ?? And that lone loss was a blowout 16-12 BW loss to Wheaton in 2003. Yep, OAC is definately weak.
November 11th, 2007 at 10:49 pm
Also, if you haven’t read this from Pat yet:
http://www.d3football.com/notables/2007/11/11/New-look+bracket+long+overdue
You might want to. Lots of good thoughts in there about why this bracket is suddenly different from others, including actual insight from NCAA officials.
FWIW, I know you guys are all singluarly-focused, but you’re way to rough on the committee. This bracket is a fun one with a lot of good-looking matchups. Unless you are from Whitworth or Wheaton, you’re in … so stop complaining!
November 11th, 2007 at 11:13 pm
Keith,
I am from wheaton and I am not complaining. I don’t think anyone else from wheaton will either. we didn’t get it done in the regular season and we know what happens when you go to the dance without all your “bullets”. Thunder fans and players will get healthy and be back next year. I have no complaints on the committee taking other teams.
November 11th, 2007 at 11:14 pm
Keith, Abilene Christian is the #4 seed in the Southwest Region and host Mesa State (10-1). Mesa State lost only to Chadron this year. That winner gets the chance to go to Chadron for the second round.
I am glad your trip to Texas was so productive. We fans rely on your eyes to help us grasp the vastness of D3.
November 11th, 2007 at 11:14 pm
testing
November 11th, 2007 at 11:14 pm
D3Keith, thanks for all your comments. Earlier, you mentioned “3) UW-Eau Claire did pass Whitworth in the criteria, apparently. We’ll have to take a closer look to determine why.”
Have you been able to determine why yet? A team that loses two D3 games (one to a 3-7 team) and doesn’t even win its conference getting the nod over a team that won the NWC (actually ran through it unblemished) and lost one D3 game to a team that won its conference and is heading towards the dance??? I believe comments about what the NWC has achieved in its short history in D3 have already been mentioned so I won’t repeat it. Oh, and there was that Regional Ranking thing that had Whitworth ahead of UW-Eau Claire. Seriously, the exclusion of the NWC champ seems more than a little fishy to me. Were there potential economic advantages to keeping them out of the dance? After all, only having one West coast team and sending Redlands to SJU probably pretty much takes care of anyone having to travel to or from the West coast after that doesn’t it? What’s the scoop?
November 11th, 2007 at 11:17 pm
I will add that I am as excited as I can be (without my team) about these brackets. They are as fair as I can remember and the cross regional matchups will provide fodder for all of d3.com for many months to come. No more west teams saying “we have all the best teams” or north folks saying “if only we don’t have to go thru alliance” or east teams saying “we get no respect”. whether you are in the west, north, or east, you all get your shot starting right now. We will all know a lot more about the relative strength of the other regions in a few weeks…..or at least we will think we know.
November 11th, 2007 at 11:30 pm
No more west teams saying “we have all the best teams”
—-
I don’t know USee, there’s a decent chance of two West teams in the semis … despite getting only 7 teams into the 32.
November 11th, 2007 at 11:32 pm
As for the quality of the bracket, I am disappointed that Whitworth did not get at least the 10th at-large/7th Pool C bid and the now-predictable Texas sub-bracket will determine the best team in the State.
Perhaps the NCAA ought to award a special trophy of mesquite wood, barbed wire and cowhide as the Texas Trophy!
I honestly look forward to the South Region bracket. Regardless of who prevails in the UMHB-Trinity game, then W&J must defeat a team from Texas. The Presidents have not done that since 1994.
November 11th, 2007 at 11:33 pm
I sort of recall a poll question earlier in the season what is your team playing for at the time my team had 2 losses and i thought they would be a lock for a ecac playoff imagine my suprise when i see my school in the ncaa’s well well with Mike DeLong (an e8 head coach and trying to guarantee an ECAC victory for Dave Murray) and Steve Mohr (head coach at trinity and my former golf teacher at IC ) I can see that IC makes some sense. Unfortunatly for all those who would like to see a different Stagg Bowl champion this year chances are there will not be a first round upset because traditionally Ithaca does lousy against NCAA teams from Ohio on the first try Wittenberg and Dayton come to mind.
However my heart will be with the Bombers and praying for a shocking upset.
November 11th, 2007 at 11:37 pm
Keith I find your toeing the line and trying to stay nice about the fact that there are some really stupid comments on this thread admirable but when someone (or in this case a lot of someone’s) can come in here with misinformed, ignorant, incorrect comments without being held accountable for what they are saying and with no regard to fact then the entire credibility of this board diminishes to nothing. I for one will not sift through the crap to find the intelligent, insightful posts.
dukefinadv you need to lighten up pal. My son is defending this country. I find your combining of life and death to a football discussion board offensive. PERIOD.
November 11th, 2007 at 11:51 pm
Ric,
Re-read dukefinadv’s post – he said exactly what you said.
November 12th, 2007 at 12:21 am
Altor,
Just so you know Wabash College is located in Crawfordsville, IN and actually much further away from Mt. Union than Ithaca. In fact, White-water is closer to us than Mt. Union
November 12th, 2007 at 12:23 am
repete-I would think since the west was awarded 2 nmbr 1 seeds that, yes, there is a decent chance. That’s precisely what I was saying. The west got what they wanted, so did the north and the east.
November 12th, 2007 at 12:36 am
Ric,
Deep breath, man. I think you’re right about some of the venting but you’re definitely wrong about dukefinadv.
Even so, we don’t mind letting people vent. We hope they read the other comments, though, and see how far off they are.
November 12th, 2007 at 12:51 am
Usee,
Yeah, I’m just saying expect some crowin’.. perhaps even from, uh, me …:) (but usually only after provocation by some scoffable East remark).
November 12th, 2007 at 12:53 am
Welllllllll, it only took till 5:16 pm from SJFF82 to get to the ” Mount hasn’t seen anything like us or played our level of competition scenario” Ahhhhh,…… yes they have.
I think Keith covered it earlier but the preparation would be the same and so would the results IMHO. That is part of what Mount is all about. Prepared and focused. One game one opponent at a time. The OAC is generally regarded as the second best conference in D3. There isn’t much better preparation for the playoffs than that. It is not our fault other conferences are not as strong.
The WIAC is also regarded as the best overall conference in the country. Their teams may be a shade above the OAC across the entire conference but 1-5 would be a crap shoot every year. Again IMHO. Mount has beaten their best two years running in the Stagg. Weak competition?
As far as recruiting being harder. There are 52 colleges and universities in Ohio alone and 20 of those are D3. They are all competing for the same kids. The MAC, Big 10, NAIA and D1AA all can be found here too and the Raider roster still has 155 kids from OHIO and another 40 from other states. Doesn’t get much harder than that. It is still D3. Even one player via the east as I recall.
It is commitment of the Head coach, his staff and the players that have brought them to this level and not playing little sisters of the poor every week or is it weak?. LOL. But what is to be said about the openers the next two years? Another weak opponent? Only if the Raiders win in a MONKEYSTOMP.
Tell Ithaca to bring the “A” game because if “the Raider 3rd string QB and RB are deciding who is going to score the most TD’s in the second half” then you have only proved the rest of the country right about the east…..”Mount only has to play weak teams to get to the Stagg”. It can’t possibly be that Mount is that good. And you sure don’t want to be #7 in a row! I’ll let you look that one up.
Just havin’ fun nothing personal.
GO RAIDERS!
November 12th, 2007 at 1:00 am
“Keith I find your toeing the line and trying to stay nice about the fact that there are some really stupid comments on this thread admirable … ”
Ric,
Thanks. Try not to join the stupid comment brigade. Not everyone has been watching as closely as us for as long as we have. And as someone pointed out to me a few minutes ago, usually if they don’t respect Mount Union beforehand, they will after they play. So keep that in mind while you’re not sifting through the crap.
November 12th, 2007 at 1:03 am
Raider fans, I think that MUC’s venture into the East shall be one of the most interesting things about these playoffs. My first thought is that MUC thru the East Region will be like nothing we have seen since Sherman thru Georgia!
It seems that there are some short memories about John Carroll in 2002, which beat Hobart and Brockport State plus South Region foe, Muhlenberg.
In fact, I will bet that the Purple Raiders may have more fan interest as they make their run towards Salem.
Best wishes and travel safely, all.
November 12th, 2007 at 1:10 am
BTW, in 2002, after John Carroll won the East Region?
They lost to MUC 57-19 in the semifinals! OUCH!
November 12th, 2007 at 1:27 am
Dukefinadv,
No oxymoron, really. But perhaps in trying to be gentle to our Eastern brethren by using “elite quality” I was semantically imprecise.
My point, of course, was that the East’s presumed balance doesn’t equal strength.
I think I was still recovering from whiplash at the idea about MUC having it easy in the OAC compared to the East powerhouses. One of the stranger posts I’ve seen for a while.
Best of luck with the young hoopster. Get him shooting with this usual non-shooting hand ASAP ….
Nice post on the vets too. On this day especially, we should remember where the real “battles” and “wars” are.
November 12th, 2007 at 1:35 am
Ron
I don’t think you got my point.
Mary Hardin-Baylor is ranked 5 in the last D3 national poll. Trinity is ranked 13. So, if the NCAA agreed with these rankings, MHB should be the highest number 2 seed, not a 4 or a 3. Trinity should be the highest 4 seed. Based on the national understanding of their quality, and what I see on the field, these teams should not meet until late in the tournament.
The current Division III playoff system means that all of the teams in Texas have to play one another in the first round, no matter where they are seeded. Since Trinity routinely travels to Colorado, Georgia, And Tennesse for conference games this stikes me as a bit short sighted.
November 12th, 2007 at 1:52 am
Wow, 100 comments and counting on Day 1 of the bracket being out. Wait til all the people who only have the internet at work get here tomorrow
OK, so I was asked about Whitworth and UWEC by D3forme at 11:14.
I don’t see the economic advantages, given that a flight to Spokane from L.A./Orange County/Ontario must be cheaper to charter than one to Minnesota, while SJU could bus to several other places (or host). I also don’t peg the committee as people who would do that — remember, they’re all D3 coaches and admins themselves, not a faceless bunch in the NCAA office in Indianapolis. You have to figure they would be professional enough to try to set the best field, if for no other reason than they would want their peers to act the same way if it was their own school under consideration.
So that leaves something they saw in the criteria, or some reason they felt UWEC was better than Whitworth. I’m not certain what it was, but let’s examine.
We know Whitworth had the better in-region win pct., while UWEC had the OWP/OOWP edge. Their common opponent was a wash (both beat UW-Stout, 17-14 and 23-21). There was no h2h game, and their results against regionally-ranked opponents don’t seem to bear much out, as UWEC lost to UWW and Whitworth lost to Redlands.
It’s possible, even probable, that a decision between these two, given the above primary criteria, then went to the secondary criteria listed here: http://www.d3football.com/faq.php?answer&category=Playoffs&id=25
The only thing there that I really see that would make much difference is overall winning percentage, which would mean both teams are .800. Remember, they did have the same record overall at 8-2.
I don’t think the non-Division results come into play, but if they did, UWEC beat a D2 team and an NAIA playoff team.
If a team besides UWW snuck into the committee’s regional rankings, then that would somehow make sense.
Perhaps UWW and the WIAC have solidified their elite status over the past two years to the point where a loss to UWW is not quite like a loss to Redlands. History is not supposed to be part of the process, but even just looking at it this year, you might say that team is so good that it’s not like other losses. But UWEC also had the UWRF loss which is in theory worse than both of Whitworth’s.
Even the working theory that the committee wanted to reward teams who play in tough conferences doesn’t hold a lot of water because the NWC is generally regarded as a tough conference. Not quite as good as the WIAC, but enough to tip the scales to a runner-up?
I can’t really figure it for UWEC, on the criteria or slightly off it, but I can also say that the comparison is not overwhelmingly in favor of Whitworth either. So if it’s not a no-brainer, somebody saw or felt or considered something to tip the scales, and maybe it was a very close decision but one that had to be made.
November 12th, 2007 at 2:01 am
Kenneth,
Welcome to the D3 playoffs.
First, the D3 rankings have no bearing on the playoffs, so throw No. 5 and No. 13 out.
The committee makes its own rankings. You can logically assume that they are somewhat like ours, but then again … UMHB was a four seed in its own region, so maybe not.
Where Trinity plays during the regular season also has no bearing on where they go in the playoffs.
Division III gets 3.5% of the NCAA March Madness TV money (and perhaps other earnings; don’t quote me on the source) to stage all of its championships. In EVERY sport.
Therefore, since D3 can’t cover its own costs with gate receipts, we are actually lucky to have a playoff that allows 32 teams in the field and uses flights when necessary. Basically, the committee is strongly directed to keep flights in the first round to an absolute minimum.
These are flights basically paid for by our share of money we had no hand in earning, as is everything from officials to security to whatever … see the handbook for the gory details.
As noted elsewhere, it’s not a real travesty this year because a 3-6 game or a 4-5 game with Trinity at UMHB was something people expected. It wasn’t like last year when UMHB was a 2 seed and HSU a 3 and played in round 1.
November 12th, 2007 at 6:49 am
D3Keith:
If you think my comments are idiotic….just say so, that’s ok, instead of the subtle “he’s a moron” digs planted in your next 6 posts.
And I cant really have this debate by keybaord, because “points” trying to be made get lost. I did not ’say’ many of the things you claim I said, and I did make the point (that MUC would still beat the East teams week in and week out) that you adopted for your own to use against my comments.
Comparing the play-off numbers to my argument is apples to oranges. I was simply commenting about the level of play and competition on a broader and year to year basis. I made a very general statement, and is typical this time of year, all the more informed posters come crashing down with “Oh my god, he did not just say MUC is weak did he???” Well no I did not. MUC is great, they have been and will be.
It is so complicated to have an opinion on here that most dont agree with, because everyone will take what you post, change it and ‘put words in your mouth’ to justify their own attitude about what your opinion was.
Somebody’s post above made my point quite clear though…MUC has beaten the ’strong’ OAC teams this year and mostly on the road by something like 200-0 combined. WARNING: THIS IS JUST MY OPINION D3KEITH AND MUC NATION: MUC WOULD NOT DO THAT YEAR IN AND YEAR OUT IN THE EAST (NOTE KEITH i SAID EAST, NOT EMPIRE 8).
And then if you (SJF) do happen to march into Alliance in December in the Final 4 and hang in their with the Giant until 5 minutes left in the game…when EVERYONE else loses by 45 points, then there is some other point to be made…like MUC rushed for 378 and SJF only kept it close on the scoreboard. Of course that is where they kept it close…It is the “SCOREBOARD” that the winners always allude to when the game is over…so why not OK for SJF to revel a bit in that particular scoreboard.
I said I would take the heat for my post….and I will. It is ok to believe that MUC will not win the next 4 games in the same fashion that they trounced the OAC greats like Capital, Ohio Northern and Co. this year…
November 12th, 2007 at 7:37 am
Let me state this in another manner.
Were I setting the odds in Vegas, I would place the over/under of the cumulative margin of victory for MUC in the next three games at 100 points.
The East Region would take the under, but I bet the influx of bets from the rest of the country would be so overwhelming, that the margin would creep towards 120.
I hope that concept explains to you East fans what the rest of D3 thinks about of East Region football. This is not dismissing the parity, the fan support, the traditions, or the evolving D3cast network of games. I think that the East is even more provincial than we Texans about our football.
Friends, I look forward to the MUC Regional.
November 12th, 2007 at 8:51 am
The good thing about the East playing MUC is that we can hardly look any worse than the OAC has looked already! If the East loses every game by 50, so what? That would be better than half the OAC! Though I am sure you’ll all come up with excuses, saying that MUC put in their QBs little brother or something.
I preferred the projected pairing of playing Curry in the first round, but since that isn’t the actual case, and we’d probably have to play MUC ANYWAY to win a National Title, might as well step up first.
Go BOMBERS!
November 12th, 2007 at 8:53 am
D3 Keith – are you kidding me? You think MUC wanted the game to be so close last year against SJFC? The reason they did not throw the ball was (1) because they couldn’t and (2) because they were having a lot of success running the ball. Saying that MUC only ran the ball because they knew they were going to win the game is ridiculous. Fisher had the ball with under 7 minutes left in the game with a chance to take the lead. MUC is a great team who will destroy a team in the 1st quarter if they can. They do not just “play” with a team because they know they are going to win – they’re too good to do that.
Also, you think SJFC was ranked 4th last year just because they played MUC close in the semifinal game? SJFC had to beat a couple of highly ranked teams to get there (Springfield, Rowan) and then they gave MUC their toughest game of the year! So SJFC DESERVED to be ranked 4th last year!
D3 Keith – did you attend MUC? It sure sounds like it!
Go Ithaca! Go Fisher!
November 12th, 2007 at 9:12 am
Why is it that everyone thinks the East is so weak? The argument that the East has not won the Stagg Bowl since 1991 is foolish – MUC has won it 8 of the past 11 years – so that takes us back to 1995. And I believe that someone already stated that Ithaca won it in 1991. Not too bad if you take MUC out of the picture!
I will admit – I know very little about the schools in D3 football with the exception of the teams in the East. But I can tell you one thing – the East is pretty good. Hopefully the playoffs this year will prove that fact.
November 12th, 2007 at 9:29 am
I like to think that our veterans fought for our right to make idiots of ourselves on a football blog. Mission accomplished!
November 12th, 2007 at 9:40 am
I’ve been lurking for awhile listening to this whole “East” debate and people going over whether Mount Union would have difficulty in this region. I’ve been coming to Bomber games since 1988 and here’s my take:
Mount Union in 160-4 over the last 12 years
Mount Union has won eight of the last 11 national titles
Most of the games Mount Union plays aren’t even close
With all due respect to my fellow East dwellers, we’re missing the forest for the trees here. You don’t win 160 out of 164 just because of the level of your competition. You win on that level because you are easily better than anyone else. Mount Union beats ranked teams, on the road, or in the playoffs, by obscene margins. If you put them in the E8, they’d go 10-0. Easily. Same with the LL. Do I “know” this for a fact? Nope. But find me some evidence to suggest otherwise. 160-4 speaks for itself
I’m probably the biggest Bomber homer alive, and I know a few of the guys on this team. They’re great guys and work incredibly hard. And they don’t have a chance on Saturday. If this game were close than 40 points, I’d be stunned.
I will make one comment regarding a specific post.
SJFC81– There have been 15 national championship games since 1991. Mount Union has won 8 of them, but it’s not like the East has been winning those other years. Even with Mount Union out, they aren’t winning.
Here’s a hypothetical question. I say this will all due respect, because I think Mount Union does what they need to do every year, and it’s clear they win and are classy doing it.
Is Mount Union, on the whole, good for D3 Football? What I mean is, is it a positive when one team wins year after year after year, usually in blowout fashion? Is it good for a sporting institution to have one team so dominant compared to the others? Does it help or hurt the exposure of D3 football as a whole?
Again, I’m not ripping on MUC, or saying they are doing anything wrong. But when you go 160-4, that’s unbeatable. Not in a literal sense maybe, since they do have four losses. But for all intents and purposes, MUC is unbeatable. I’m sure for those 4 teams who beat them over the last 12 years, the wins were phenominal for the, but what about the other 160 games, most of which aren’t even close? Is it a good thing–again for D3 on the whole–that MUC is so dominant?
November 12th, 2007 at 10:11 am
Ric – You find my post about putting vile comments about the lowest tier of NCAA College Football in perspective relative to what yesterday and today represent on the grand scale of truly meaningful life………you just don’t get it and I’ll keep you in my prayers!! cjdel10, Mr. Ypsi, Pat Coleman and repete………thanks for having my back and understanding where I was (and am ) coming from.
Ralph / Keith – Thanks for your comments/opinions about how the Mount would stack up against a top tier D2 team. Ralph, wasn’t App State about a 25-30 point underdog at Michigan?? Let’s ask our best, just one time (as plenty of other D3 teams do), to carry the flag and pull an App State vs. Chadron, or, on a “shock the world level”, Youngstown State!! If they run the table in these playoffs (I’ll give you the field) and win each game by 3+ touchdowns, challenge yourselves to see how truly great you are……as App State did at the big house!! I’m sure the players, to a man, would love to give it a try!!
Keith – I’m a little surprised at your comment (to Ric) about “not sifting through the crap”. I’ve got a good friend who makes over a million dollars a year (four hours a day!!) on an all sports radio station in Philadelphia (WIP 610) and I once asked him about inane callers. He told me that it was the volume of these inane callers who keep the phone lines lit up, allow the sales guys to charge what they charge advertisers (due to their helping boost the ratings) and creating a back-and-forth buzz……….and if not for this, he would still be a writer making 1/10 of his current salary!! Keith, if this board was only for PHd level (or mensa level) D3 football high acumen types (I’d be out!!)………it would be like what the world will look like when The Rapture occurs……a pretty empty place. Take the comments from your final post as a true barometer…..”Wow, 100 comments and counting on Day 1 of the bracket being out. Wait til all the people who only have the internet at work get here tomorrow”. How many would it have been if you take out ric’s “crap”? But I still love ya’ my fellow suffering Eagles fan!!
Time to get to the hedge fund and figure out what to do after last week!!
November 12th, 2007 at 10:18 am
I think there are several teams in the East that can beat Mount Union.
In checkers, or Rock/Paper/Scissors, or Jeopardy. Football? Well, good luck. You’ll have your chances.
November 12th, 2007 at 10:22 am
Bombers798891, you raise a good question. I think Mount Union on the whole is good for Division III football in a couple of ways:
1) It provides a measuring stick for the rest of the division to try to stand up to.
2) It seems to be one of the few non-News-of-the-Weird stories that the national media can tell about Division III.
What bothers me is when you come into a season with seemingly no hope that anyone can beat them. When the national championship is a foregone conclusion, that’s bad. I wouldn’t mind per se if Mount Union won the title every year, as long as there was some doubt as to whether it were possible. We talked about this at the end of the 2006 season, that this could be a preordained season, and that isn’t good.
November 12th, 2007 at 10:34 am
“I think there are several teams in the East that can beat Mount Union.”
Watch and learn, grasshopper, watch and learn. Until you see the Raiders in person, you have no idea what you’re in for. Make a trip to Alliance if you have the chance and you’ll find out what most of the rest of us have over the years – they simply ARE that good.
For those saying “hey so and so played MUC close last year”, my experience has been if you actually do manage to play the Raiders close one year all it does is focus them to come beat the tar out of you the next. Maybe this year will be different but I wouldn’t hold my breath.
Should a team from the East defeat MUC, I’ll be the first to come here, congratulate that team, and admit I was wrong. BTW, anyone who thinks MUC is my team clearly hasn’t been around the South Region boards since the site was created.
November 12th, 2007 at 10:39 am
The beauty of D3 football is that we get to see the truth play out on the field. I’m not sure the teams from the East will like the truths that will likely come to fruition in the next few weeks. Here is one Purple Raider stat to chew on. In the 2nd quarter against Heidelberg back on Sept 29, MUC gave up an innocent field goal. Since then, they have scored 326 points and have yet to give up a single point. And yes, four of those opponents were ranked in the d3football.com top 25. This is probably the best MUC team ever, and perhaps it’s one of the best D3 football teams ever assembled. We’ll see.
That said, football is football, and anything can happen. St John Fisher played MUC very tough last year (almost as tough as Capital, who probably would have won the Stagg Bowl if no MUC existed last year), and I’d expect someone in the region to give MUC a good game this year, too.
The earlier talk about the weakness of the OAC is ridiculous. The #2 team, Capital, is probably worse than the #2 OAC team most years…due mostly to injuries. But I’d take MUC, John Carroll, Baldwin Wallace, Capital, and Ohio Northern in a 5-game series with the 5 best from ANY D3 conference in the land. But alas, they don’t hand out trophies to the best conference; the prize goes to the best team.
Congrats to all 32 teams on achieving what some 200 or so teams did not do – make the field of 32. All 32 teams have a chance to win it, unlike 30 of the best 32 “bigtime universities” come January 7. May the best D3 team win, whether they be from Ohio, Texas, New York, Wisconsin, or wherever.
November 12th, 2007 at 10:56 am
sjfc81: St John Fisher played Mount very tough last year, but you’re not the toughest team (Whitewater) that Mount played against. Nor was SJF the toughest game (17-14 over Capital) that Mount played. No shame in being one of the Top 5 in the nation! That’s not a slam against them, it’s just that Whitewater and Capital were a little better LAST YEAR.
Who is really in the Top 5 this year? Who knows. I will guarantee that Capital isn’t one of them and that Mount Union is. Whitewater and SJF might be. Mary-Hardin Baylor? Hard to judge them since their regular season is built on crushing average teams and getting drilled by Whitewater. Central? They’re 10-0 but doing so with smoke & mirrors. But that’s what the next 5 weeks will decide.
As a MUC guy, I can honestly say that I love Mount being moved to the East Region this year. It adds a HUGE amount of intrigue and excitement to what otherwise would have been a very boring trip thru the North Region to the Semi’s. The North Region is exceptionally weak this year due to key injuries (QB and others) at Wheaton, Capital and Wabash. Which are3 of the regions historically toughest teams. Heading into the selection show, I would have bet my house that no one in the North Region would have been within 30 points of MUC in the first 3 rounds. Partly because those teams are young, the others are injured and all of them know they are about to get crushed.
Now we get to face brand new teams coming from good conferences with a lot of enthusiasm and history, something the North Region couldn’t produce this year.
There have been years where the North Region has been very, very good. But this isn’t one of them. I’d be beyond shocked if Whitewater doesn’t win their first 3 games by 20-30 points each.
November 12th, 2007 at 10:57 am
I think if you look at some of the great sports dynasties, you would have to think that they were all good for their sports. Yankees, Celtics, UCLA, etc. Eventually it demands that others get better, and they usually do. I believe the quality of D-III football has improved immensely since Mount Union started their run in the mid 90’s. No different than the quality of college basketball since the 60-70’s Bruin dominated. Eventually Mount won’t be the odds on favorite “every” year, but rather one of the top teams every year. And that will have made D-III better.
November 12th, 2007 at 11:10 am
sjfc81,
MUC had decent success passing against St John Fisher last year in the semis. What you fail to notice is that they didn’t even need to pass. KMIC ran for 370+ yards and averaged just about 9 yards per carry. When you have a runner who does not fumble and eats up yards like that only a moron would pass when you have the lead.
As for this year I think the regional games will be interesting. The most intersting part may be if MUC can continue its defensive string of shutouts. You see the 1st team defense has given up a total of 3 points this year. In total the defense has scored more points than the opponets offense. That is one sick stat.
November 12th, 2007 at 11:19 am
HScoach – I was very proud that SJFC finished 4th last year – definitely no shame in being the fourth best team in D3 football. I was just disappointed that D3 Keith implied they were ranked 4th just because they played MUC tough in the semifinal game (and he also said that MUC could have beaten SJFC by more if they wanted to). I think SJFC DESERVED to be ranked 4th last year because the were a very good team who had a very good season, not just one very good game!
November 12th, 2007 at 11:20 am
Dukefinadv,
I don’ think Keith was agreeing with ric, merely just “quoting” him. apparently they didn’t teach him much punctuation at his alma mater, Randolph Macon!!
November 12th, 2007 at 11:45 am
after one day to get over the disappointment concerning the Whitworth Pirates I decided to get registered and send my first comments to D3. Thanks for the comments concerning why UWEC over the bucs even though it appears that politics, penny pinching, and lack of respect was the factors. I am glad that next year the NWC champ gets in automatically though my senior starter at Whitworth will not see this. It is a great life lessen that life can blind side you even when you have for the most part done everything asked of you. Yes we needed to beat Redlands but to lose to an eventual league champ in game one with replacements on the o for great all american players was understandable. To know that Linfield would have made it by beating the bucs after losing to the NWC number 5 team is tough. All of you seniors that I care for so much need to hold your heads high and remember your achievments. You have made the Whitworth name a power to be dealt with. The great recruits that now WANT to play buc football will keep the tradition alive.
November 12th, 2007 at 12:09 pm
First off all, people need to quit trying to find ways to bash on mount. Just except the fact there the best until proven otherwise. Second who started this whole weak east bull sh??. Its really not. St Johns is a great team as is St John Fisher. Id put them up against any team in the other bracketts. Whitewater and mary harden baylor, maybe capital, but apparently if your from the oac you suck. I think the ncaa did a good job.. Go Mount..
November 12th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Pat-
I think you raise an interesting point on the whole “It gives people a story to talk about” angle. Certainly, we can’t expect Trinity to give us 15 laterals EVERY week right?
But, as a fellow journalist, I pose this response: What’s new about the story? Are we getting to the point where the media can recycle the same old “Mount Union is the best team you may never hear of” story and just update the numbers?
Let’s suppose they win it all this year as we all think they will. They haven’t broken their consecutive wins record. They’ve already won three national titles in a row twice. Kehres already has (I believe) the best winning percentage in college football history. So what changes this year? Or next year if it happens again?
Mainjack– You’re right. I do think the rest of college football may eventually catch up with them at some point. The real “problem” with this dynasty isn’t simply that MUC wins the titles every year, but they go undefeated almost every year, and, there’s almost a sense of, “Wow, they NEVER lose” A great baseball team loses 60 games out of 162. A great basketball team may lose 25-30. Pro football? Maybe 50. Mount Union has lost four. Also, the regular season is a formality. Is it one loss in the last 13 regular seasons? Again, there’s just this sense of “it’s inevitable”
Two more questions, still hypothetical and meant with all due respect:
1. Should MUC play an upper division school with their out-of-conference game(s)? What better way to help D III football than showing that they can beat the big boys?
2. Should MUC consider moving up to a higher division? This isn’t a “for the good of the rest of D III” argument, but one for the school itself. I don’t know if the school (or Alliance for that matter) could support the move in terms of attendance, etc. But, at what point do you start looking for a bigger challenge?
November 12th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
Pat–
Adressing the other part of your post, the “measuring stick” argument, I will have to respectfully disagree. Isn’t the issue that, when measure against MUC, everyone comes up short? How do you compare? By saying you “only” lost to MUC by 10 points instead of 20?
Yes, four teams have beaten MUC in the last 12 years. But, I would argue that:
1. Those teams already knew they at least had a decent shot and were elite teams, since with the exception of the Ohio Northern game, they all came deep in the playoffs.
2. The wins, while great, really don’t change things. For example, in 2001 SJF came to IC and lost 52-0. Three years later, they beat IC. They beat them again in 2006 and 2007. Was Ithaca a measuring stick for St. John Fisher’s rise to glory? Most likely. And we can now see the results. Fisher has surpassed Ithaca. But have any of the teams who beat, or even hang with MUC do that? It’s still pretty much MUC on a level all their own.
November 12th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
Let me rephrase — instead of measuring stick, it gives them something to shoot for.
You already know St. John Fisher gained a measure of respect with its performance last year.
I hesitate to follow you down this road because it seems like the next stop is “let’s move Mount Union out of Division III” and I don’t want to be anywhere near that discussion.
November 12th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Don’t forget to listen to our podcast for more analysis of the brackets.
November 12th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
Just for the record, Mount has not gone undefeated as many times recently as is being mentioned. In the past four completed seasons, they only went undefeated once. They can be beat, it just takes a great effort to do it.
As far as moving up a division, that has been hashed out many times. The only determining factor on moving up is whether or not you want to give athletic scholarships. As long as you believe that you want students first and athletes second, then you should stay at D-III. And I believe all of the D-III schools want this, otherwise they would give the players money and move up.
November 12th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
Okay … almost everyone agrees MUC will dominate and win them all – likely by 40 point shutouts. There is no argument about that if you look at the stats. So …are there any other games leading up to the eventual crowning of the king that ANYONE can comment on? After all, it’s the journey – or as CBS says every year – “the one shining moment” – that generates enthusiasm and history ! HSCOACH talked about the “exceptionally weak North Region” due to injuries at the historically tough schools. Maybe it’s time for the elitist snobs of this D3 post to start looking at the “newcomers” to the dance and talking about the entire field. These are the teams that will generate new fan bases and new interest for D3 football even if they are only around 1 or 2 games. Anyone think that Butler basketball doesn’t generate tremendous interest after their trips to the Sweet 16 in the past 4 years ? Isn’t Gonzaga now a household word because of their NEW history ? Maybe MUC wins the next 8 championships — but the teams they destroy on the way will be new faces … and who knows who will one day be a giant killer ! Some may opine the north is weak — but the games are all very interesting match-ups with great story lines … much better drama than MUC vs. anyone !
November 12th, 2007 at 1:25 pm
As I read all this about Mount playing a Higher Division School such as Ashland, Youngstown State etc, I have to think those schools would never consent to playing Mount Union….why would they and thus endure the embarrassment that Michigan did? To me Mount would have nothing to prove by playing them, meaning I know they are good….the opposing schools would have every thing to lose….Will never happen.
As for Mount moving up to a higher division….why? They are a small school (2000 or so) in a small town….23,000 or so. They have no desire to move up. Football is just one of the things Good about Mount.They are first and foremost a good place for a young adult to get a life preparing education…And isn’t that what D3 College is all about….playing football in an atmosphere conducive to making you a person better prepared for the “real world”
Enough ……looking forward to Mount playing some teams different than they usually play….Good luck to all….Go Purple Raiders!
November 12th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
Mainjack, yes they have. Seven times in the last eleven years as a matter of fact.
1996
1997
1998
2000
2001
2002
2006
Hey, MUC “can” be beaten, and I hope my Bombers do it this Saturday. But, I’m also a realist. Enough of MUC for now. Any guesses on how the rest of the E8 (Fisher and Hartwick) do?
November 12th, 2007 at 1:50 pm
Bomber,
Yes, that’s true, but my point was only once in the past 4 years, which means other programs are getting better.
November 12th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
Mainjack,
I don’t know if “better” is accurate.
2003: St John’s beats Mt. Union, goes 7-3 next season. The four years before they won the game, they lost nine times. They’ve lost seven times and counting since. Pretty similar.
2004: MHB beats MUC. MHB loses in first round of playoffs following year. MHB had lost four times the previous three seasons. They have lost six times and counting since. Not an improvement.
2005: Ohio Northern beats MUC, goes 6-4 and 7-3 the next two seasons.
Therin, in my mind lies the problem. The teams that beat Mount Union were already elite teams, but also, the victory didn’t springboard them into dynasty mode. Heck, two of the three teams missed the playoffs the next season and the other team had a one and done. The teams didn’t improve after beating MUC. All three teams did WORSE the next season.
That’s a problem. I don’t get the sense that these teams are beating MUC because they’ve arrived as a consistent challenger to the throne. They had a great year, played a great game and won, sure. But after that, all three teams fell back down to earth, missing the playoffs, etc. But MUC remains there. I want to see another team seriously challeng MUC on a steady basis before I believe that D 3 has gotten better as a whole
November 12th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
Hey mainjack, what college are you from? I might have missed it. A east school like me?
November 12th, 2007 at 2:55 pm
All dynasties come to an end eventually, whether we’re talking real life history or sports. I’m a Purple Raider fan and I am enjoying their current run, but eventually they won’t be the best team in D3 football year in and year out. Who knows what will lead to their eventual “fall” …Coach Kehres getting a multi-million dollar offer and moving up… coach retiring…injuries to key players…recruiting drop-off…egos replacing effort…a few years of just bad luck…some other school gets a nucleus of 10 or 20 key players, leading to a cycle of them getting the nation’s best non-scholarship guys… who knows when, but it will happen. History has a way of repeating itself.
November 12th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
Well I don’t think Mt. Union has to worry about that right now and probably for a while.
Does anyone think HSC will take out Wesley and give the ODAC something to talk about? Its a little sad but the ODAC is not as strong as it was 3,4,5,6 + years ago. Those BC teams were as strong as any in the nation and I don’t think this years winner HSC is anywhere close to any of the BC teams.
November 12th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
Bomber,
Mount Union alum, living in New Hampshire
November 12th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
Main- Nice. We almost met back in 94, but we both lost in the National semi-finals. Tough break
November 12th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
Just a couple of small comments….
1) I am a Fisher fan and therefore a supporter of the E8, I don’t think the E8 is as good as good a conference as the OAC and I think those that say otherwise are in the minority so dont take it as disrespectful and “these guys don’t know what they are talking about so just wait and see blah blah” yes we understand what is in store for us with Mount Union coming to town, believe me 99% of us get it…
2) In regards to last years game between Mount Union and Fisher, Kmic was unstoppable and averaging 9 yards per carry makes me weep. But if they could have gotten their passing attack going full blast they would have, you can’t act like Mount Union won’t try and blow you out by hanging 70 on you if they are able to because they have done so in the past many times before including in the playoffs. I was there, they did try and get the passing game going, throwing the deep ball for Garcon on more than a couple occasions and it just wasn’t working out. So therefore they were sticking with what we couldn’t defend and that was the rush. It feels so disrespectful taking our defensive effort that day and reducing it with an argument that Mount Union could have ran up the score if they wanted they just chose to run. That’s crap to me.
And that’s it from me, I’ve said my peace. I hope Ithaca does well this Saturday and it’s great being able to have a reason to communicate with all the Mount Union people again, they were very respectful and made it a great experience.
November 12th, 2007 at 4:12 pm
Mount had some weak opponents. But they did play Capital, Baldwin Wallace and Ohio Northern. And several shutouts weren’t squeakers – they were blowouts.
When the first unit defense doesn’t allow a touchdown all season…. it’s not a weak schedule. It’s a good defense.
But none of us is taking it for granted that Mount will be in Salem. We’re just as tense each Saturday as everyone else is.
‘84. Go Raiders!
November 12th, 2007 at 5:07 pm
Tough draw for MHB and Trinity, both of which could and likely would have advanced.
I’m uncertain about the UWW region. Is Case really worthy of a #2 seed? Their opponent’s winning percentage is lower than Wabash’s, and their best opponent finished 7-3, whereas Wabash beat teams like (a tough) Franklin and Wittenberg, which finished at 9-1 and 8-2, respectively.
Granted, 10-0 is better than 9-1, but that edge didn’t help Case get a #1 seed over UWW (which would have been silly, I think we can all agree), or Muhlenberg a #2 over Wesley, or St. Norbert a #2 over Bethel…the list goes on. So, since record obviously isn’t the be-all-end-all, why a #2 for CWRU?
November 12th, 2007 at 5:31 pm
booby,
You are jsut wrong. The last 30 plays were all runs (maybe one incomplete pass to Garcon I am not sure. The other 29 were somehting like 27 Kmic runs and 2 by Micheli.
If you do not have to pass and the other team is not stopping you then why would you ever pass. We listen to legends like Woody around here. If you pass three things can happen and two of them are not good.
We didn’t pass because we didn’t have to.
November 12th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
I would have loved the 2003 and 2004 Bombers to have a shot at Mount. The 2006 version of Fisher is the best the East has probably seen since Rowan’s run in the late 90’s.
I’m just afraid this isn’t the year for the East, and the whole “East stinks”thing is just going to be pounded more after Mount makes its run. By all accounts Mount is better, while Ithaca is still rebuilding from the Felicetti era, and Fisher is not the same without Robby and Lang. Time will tell though! Hope someone can give the purple people a run!
November 12th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
Tecmo,
We may have met at the Brockport game, I was the kid in the wheelchair who only drank soda.
I think the 2004 IC team would have been a better matchup than the current version, although I don’t know if Ithaca is “rebuilding” with this group. Given that they will lose Donovan and Baez from this team, the rebuilding will come next year…
November 12th, 2007 at 6:24 pm
Outside of MUC is there another program with as much of a winning tradition to it than IC? This is going to be a good match up and I’m sure MUC’s players are looking forward to a higher level of competition than the scout team level they’ve gotten from the OAC in ‘07.
I also am inclined to believe that the top two seeds in the East Region have the two toughest games in round 1.
November 12th, 2007 at 6:40 pm
Hey pat and kieth – I haven’t listened to the podcasts yet so you may have it mentioned on there, but since you guys run this whole site, can we get some 1st round predictions? Any big upsets waiting in the wings?
November 12th, 2007 at 6:47 pm
If you’re looking for a great game to watch for on Saturday try this one. It’s a classic MID-DRAW match-up (think 8-9 in the NCAA bball tourney) !! It may not have the luster of games with Mount, Ithaca, UWW or Wabash BUT… the Franklin-North Central game looks like a great match-up !! Here are some of the numbers – North Central (37) and Franklin (45) both put up points and both defend (NC-16, FC-20) … and I know a lot of the points against FC came late after the game was decided and starters were out. NC and FC both run the ball well, FC adds a potent passing attack. FC finished with over 5000 total yds for the season. Chad Rupp for the GRIZ threw only 6 picks all year – 3 in one game (and FC still won). A couple of final notes – Wabash beat FC with a school record day from their QB (since hurt) and ONLY by 2 points at C-ville. FC had a chance, missing a 2 point conversion in the last minute. FC played ONLY 4 home games all season, so they are road tested if need be. And finally, FC has the BEST tailgate crowd of ANY school I’ve ever been to.
I’d be interested to read other inside opinions of other match-ups.
November 12th, 2007 at 6:58 pm
SJF Fan, Thanks! I finally I see at least a reference to my team (top two East teams having the toughest round 1 games). All this MUC, IC & SJF talk had me wondering if SJF may be looking past Hobart, one of the hottest teams in the East. Should be a good one. See you there?
November 12th, 2007 at 7:07 pm
You will see me there at about 10 am in the lot on 31F.
No doubt Hobart is one of the hottest teams in the East. After the win at Alfred, I was having dinner with some fellow alum, and said point blank the two teams I would rather not see in round 1 is IC or Hobart.
IC has been killing teams the last several weeks, and if memory serves correct I think Hobart is on a 7 game streak?
There is going to be some hard fought football going on 11/17. Can’t wait.
November 12th, 2007 at 7:52 pm
Grizfan I must disagree with you about the tailgate party. Last year when we played at your school we had about 10 Franklin girls partying with us at our tailgate b4 sitting w/ us the entire game. But Franklin is good and North Central will be a good test. I think you do have a shot lets say a puncher’s chance at knocking out UWW.
November 12th, 2007 at 7:56 pm
Pat, Spokane and the Whitworth community deserves answers about their snubbing. And don’t gives us the win opponets win percentage formula crap. Its real cut and dry on who should be in and shouldn’t come down to those numbers. Everyone deserves an explanation on what really happened.
November 12th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
Cjdel:
Yep, we do predictions later in the week. Check back on Wednesday or Thursday for those.
November 12th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
Danimal … THAT was LAST year !! There are TWO new sheriffs in town for FC tailgates !! And they get better every week !! We will certainly throw a roundhouse or two at the opponents — hope we connect !! Tough to defend — multifaceted offense. Just need the D to show up. They didn’t show up at Wabash early in the season !
November 12th, 2007 at 8:14 pm
North Carolina Wesleyan over W&J. NCW played Wesley within 3 points in the first game of the year. NCW has gotten better throughout the year and those tough NON-conference games at the beginning of the year will pay dividends in the playoffs.
Pat/Keith – has a #1 seed ever fallen to an 8 seed?
I think this will be a good game though W&J is #1 for a reason.
And my other upset alert…..Mt. Union loses….um…wait…never mind.
November 12th, 2007 at 8:19 pm
RunFerrum – I like your line of thinking – just don’t like that you backed away from it.
Ithaca can win, they won’t roll over the way the team’s from the Purple Patsies Conference (OAC) does every week.
November 12th, 2007 at 8:22 pm
SJF, the 31F lot you’re referring to is about 2 mi from my house. I was thinking the same thing, (10 AM tailgate). Yes you are correct, 7 game win streak and some very impressive offensive stats. However, I have seen your team and believe SJF is once again the team to beat in upstate NY. Not any obvious weaknesses. I agree re: IC. If lightening strikes and they somehow pull off the D-3 upset of the century, there is no telling how far IC could go. Hey, MUC can’t go undefeated forever (can they?) I know SJF would like another shot at them!
November 12th, 2007 at 8:25 pm
Hey Bucfan: I’m all set to enjoy the playoffs in Division 3.
That being said…let’s re-visit for the last time our hindsight and dissappointment…
We in the NWC are a bit put off by not getting a rep in the postgame; Whitworth should have had a shot! I’m not too sure that you’re thoughts regarding Linfield getting in if they had prevailed over Whitworth is valid. I don’t think the Cats had any more chance than the Rats of being able to represent the NWC.
From our point of view(yours, mine and all of us in the conference) we can hope for continued great programs from all of our member schools and let’s say a prayer for Lewis and Clark…that they can somehow overcome and stay active in the game. We need that and more to establish and maintain the integrity of our conference.
Now…let’s enjoy some good football…D3 style!
November 12th, 2007 at 8:55 pm
Well those girls came back this year but I just assumed that was due to the few big parties we had. But your team is good and legit except a little shaky on def. I know you want to say that this is b/c of a bad day but Wabash put up 38 last year and that was Huff’s first start in over a year. Home field will hopefully give your team the advantage. I do like Franklin except for that god awful siren. I do hope it’s Franklin vs. Wabash in the regional final.
November 12th, 2007 at 9:51 pm
Hey Keith MacMillan … did I read you went to Triton? Washington Township – class of 75 … I know — WAAAYY before your time !
November 12th, 2007 at 10:13 pm
Hey Bomber, just to set one fact straight. UMHB has not lost in the first round of the playoffs since 2002.
2004 – Stagg Bowl appearance losing to Linfield
2005 – First Round – UMHB beat Trinity in surprising first round match up, lost to Wesley in the Second Round
2006 – First Round -UMHB beat Hardin-Simmons, Second Round – best W&J and then lost to Wesley in the Qurterfinals.
Just wanted to clarify a point you made earlier. Thanks!
November 12th, 2007 at 10:29 pm
Ahh, thanks bro
November 12th, 2007 at 10:32 pm
I think i saw a 9-2 record and assumed..oops
November 12th, 2007 at 10:42 pm
SJF Fan,
Could you explain the OAC’s SECOND TEAM playoff record since 1996 of 12-7 with 6 of those losses against Mount. Looks like 12-1 against all others. Patsies?? Yep, …. and Tiger Woods is a hacker.
November 12th, 2007 at 10:58 pm
No worries…the other loss in 2005 came to Howard Payne in the regular season.(not sure how that happened….no offense meant to any yellow jacket fans of HPU.) The six UMHB losses you speak of since 2004….2 to UWW, 2 to Wesley in the playoffs, one to HPU and one to Christopher Newport. The last team to beat MU in the playoffs….UMHB. Certainly not comparing the two teams this year. UMHB would have to get through the rest of some tough teams and then face UWW for a re-match. Not sure any team can compete with Mount Union this year…..but we still have to play the games. Funny thing isn’t it.
November 12th, 2007 at 11:31 pm
First time poster and longtime fan of MUC. I am excited for this years bracket as I get to follow MUC against some quality East teams. I live in Upstate and constantly follow the area teams of Hartwick, Cortland, Ithaca, Brockport and St. John Fisher. As a Mount fan I would state that we are all excited to play and see some quality football. I too am excited to see MUC placing SJF on the schedule for the next two seasons. I can now get to see one MUC game here in NY. Heres to a great tournament!
November 12th, 2007 at 11:44 pm
ferrum…..
NCW vs W&J will be a good game like all of the first round games in the south region.. however NCW will not prevail….this is their very first playoff game, 500 miles away in a hostile environment…they will be close for most of the game…in the end they will not have the experience to pull it off… also their defense will not stop W&J (swallow is the all divisions leader in QB rating and will improve on his stats in this one) final score W&J 38 NCW 24
November 13th, 2007 at 8:50 am
Statesman78 – you do not have to worry about SJFC looking past Hobart. We all know how great of a team Hobart really is. If it wasn’t for a couple of bad plays, Hobart would be undefeated and riding a 9 game winning streak. The only team I did not want Fisher to face in round 1 was Hobart – but I guess you have to beat the best to be the best. I look forward to watching a great game on Saturday!
The Great Pumpkin did an excellent preview of the game in post patterns (I believe on page 1926). I don’t agree with his final score (Hobart 27, SJFC 24) though; I think the final will be SJFC 34 Hobart 24.
November 13th, 2007 at 9:53 am
On November 12th, 2007 at 10:34 am, Ron Boerger said:
Watch and learn, grasshopper, watch and learn. Until you see the Raiders in person, you have no idea what you’re in for. Make a trip to Alliance if you have the chance and you’ll find out what most of the rest of us have over the years – they simply ARE that good.
For those saying “hey so and so played MUC close last year”, my experience has been if you actually do manage to play the Raiders close one year all it does is focus them to come beat the tar out of you the next. Maybe this year will be different but I wouldn’t hold my breath.
Should a team from the East defeat MUC, I’ll be the first to come here, congratulate that team, and admit I was wrong. BTW, anyone who thinks MUC is my team clearly hasn’t been around the South Region boards since the site was created.
Mr. Boerger, your post was spot-on – to a point. If a team from the East defeat MUC, they should be congratulated. Apologize for thinking Mount would not be defeated? No. On any given Saturday, it is not likely. On any Saturday, it is a possibility. Mount is not perfect and has lost football games in the recent 15 years. They will lose, again and again; but, not often perhaps for years to come. When they lose, they will not hang their heads. They will congratulate the victors and look forward to an opportunity to redeem themselves and to vanquish the victors when next they meet. For years, Coach Keeler and Rowan carried the torch for the East – obsessively dedicated to smashing the domination of the Raiders. This year, three East teams will line up (gang up?) on the Raiders. One of them may well defeat Mount Union on some coming Saturday. Will that end the Purple Reign? End the dominance of Mount Union Football? Probably. For 8 or 9 months.
November 13th, 2007 at 11:54 am
Comment on SJF fan being a purple raider hater. I’m glad to see Capital get moved into a different bracket. Do some homework and look at OAC teams winning percentages in the playoffs when they play someone other than Mount.
November 13th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
I am not real tactful so I will say “snubbing Whitworth was a back eye for DIII”. Linfield was ranked No. 12 even after losing to Willamette, yet I would wager if they beat Whitworth going 5-1 in league they would have made the playoffs.
Whitworth beat the No. 12 team went undefeated in league play and were snubbed. They did lose early to a league champ, more power to Redlands, and to Azusa Pacific in a close game on the road but snubbing them for a team that lost two league game was not justified. Go look yourself in the mirror.
November 13th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
Congratulations to fans of the “other 31″ teams participating in the NCAA D-III National Playoffs this year. As for me, I’m getting tired of reading about Mount Union already. No question, the Purple Raiders are the most consistent football program in the country (any division) over the past decade — enough said.
Let’s here what some of the rest of you think about your team’s chances this weekend, who will be 2007 regional champions, which players will rise to the occasion come playoff time, etc.
One last thought, I wouldn’t want to be Bethel and face the prospect of having to play a UW – Eau Claire team — on a mission to prove it belongs — in the 2nd round…!
November 13th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
Obviously Mt. Union will win everything…but besides that there is a lot of room for upsets. I think the central bracket will be a rematch between Bethel and St. Johns…but Bethel will win again. The Washington and Jefferson bracket is the hardest to predict. Is UMHB that bad to get destroyed by UWW…or were they just off. Either way they are a 4 seed after being #2 in the country for a while. In the end, Wesley will win a nail-bitter with Washington and Jeffereson. In the UWW bracket, UWW will overlook its second round opponent (I hope) either North Central or an under-rated Franklin team. This will be the upset special. Wabash (after beating the no schedule Case Western that almost lost to OWU) and Franklin will meet again. I pick Wabash to beat Franklin. In the finals, Wesley will get blown out by Mount Union.
Wesley-17 (generous) Mount Union-49
November 13th, 2007 at 7:02 pm
arnolddb, i like your thinking. wesley to make the final, that would be great. i agree that the south is the most balanced bracket with 6 ranked teams. wesley is battle tested with 3 opponents making the show, defeating all 3. i have not checked to see if anyone else has that on their resume. they were sloppy with the ball early in the year, it cost them in their only lose, or we may be talking about who should be #1 in the south wash and jeff or an undefeated wesley. i find all the whining about muc funny. they are the best, how can it be questioned, but i would love to see wesley get to play them. that would mean wesley possibly defeated uww after losing twice to them. you may be right, they might get blown out, but i would like to see the game.
November 13th, 2007 at 8:17 pm
Whitworth had a nice year and was certainly worthy of consideration for an at-large playoff spot. However, the outcries of “injustice”, and “black-eye for D3 fball” is mis-guided. There should be no debate that the WIAC is a superior conference to NWC, top to bottom. Whit and UWEC had one common opponent, UW-Stout. Whitworth beat them on a pass play on the games final play, at home. At best, Whitworth and UWEC are on par, hard to pick between the two. At worst, Whitworth is a 3 or 4 loss team in the WIAC, just like UW Stout. There are no cupcakes in the WIAC, and you have UWW. Whitworth had a couple nice wins, but you cannot tell me that they had clearly better credentials than UWEC…it’s just not so. You can be disappointed that your team did not receive a bid, but spare me the howls of injustice….it does not pass any reasonable sniff test.
November 13th, 2007 at 9:13 pm
Remember, Whitworth was ranked AHEAD of UWEC in the regional rankings before goint into the final week. Their in region record was 8-1 vs. UWEC’s 5-2.
And how does one explain the E8 getting THREE teams in – while the NWC champ doesn’t get a taste??? An Ithaca team with TWO in region losses, one by 21 points at home, gets a Pool C bid (the 2nd Pool C for the E8) while a one loss Whitworth out of the respected NWC doesn’t? Please. Three bids (two Pool Cs) to the Empire 8 and ZERO for the NWC and their one regional loss champ??? Yeah, that makes sense.
November 13th, 2007 at 9:30 pm
Most of the outcry from Whitworth fans seem to be directed at UWEC’s bid. When comparing their body of work, regardless of ‘rankings’, there is not a clear case that Whitworth should have been chosen over UWEC, and I would certainly argue that the committee made the right, albeit tough, choice. As far as your commentary on the E8, your point is excellent and is shared.
November 13th, 2007 at 9:56 pm
Furnaceman – you seem very bent on citing past playoff records.
The debate on my end is calling into question the ‘07 version of the OAC. The numbers I think suggest that the conference is having an off year.
November 13th, 2007 at 10:06 pm
since d3g brought this up I do not understand the comment that Whitworth would lose 3 or 4 games in the WIAC. I looked at the records of the teams in WIAC and see some pretty bad records. I would argue the same for most WIAC teams in the NWC. Teams like Whitworth, Linfield, Willamette, and PLU would more than hold their own and most WIAC teams would have no better record in the NWC as thay have in the WIAC. It would be fun for the 2 leagues to have a challenge weekend and see how they would fare against each other. Whitworth and Stout have been 2 great games PLU has handled Falls and in the past I believe Linfield has played Steven’s Point. Menlo also played Stout close. Anyway let the playoffs begin and good luck to all
November 13th, 2007 at 11:19 pm
After surveying the posts so far, I have some comments/opinions…
1. Any criticism of Mount Union (soft schedule, weak bracket, etc.) is ridiculous. They have earned the right to be respected in every sense.
2. Part of the fun of the debate of any bracket is to argue who should have gotten in that was snubbed. It appears to me that the UWEC/Whitworth comparison came in very close. While Whitworth fans can be very disappointed their team didn’t make it in, I don’t think the committee can be overly criticized by the choice.
3. It seems interesting that fans from Mount Union and UW-Whitewater seem to look forward to the playoffs and don’t really care who they play. It seems like fans of other schools are far more concerned about this.
4. Validity of claims that a UWW/UMHB would turn out differently depends on one’s defnition of differently. The final score was 44-14. If one thinks a second meeting would be closer than that, the claim could be true. If one thinks UMHB would win the game, they are engaged in some VERY wishful thinking. On October 28, New England beat Washington 52-7. Redskin fans might believe it would be different if they met again. And maybe it would be. But Washington would still likely lose.
5. One of the many great things about DIII football is that the championship is still settled on the field.
November 14th, 2007 at 12:16 am
boobyhasgameyo,
Love the name. Still. Responding to the post from November 12th, 2007 at 4:02 pm:
On the first point, I respect that. Sometimes when someone posts something outrageous we feel compelled to respond, just so that the people who aren’t long-time surfers (remember, someone new is on the site every day) don’t get the wrong impression. Some people know the history, some know the recent history, some know only what has happened since their freshman son started playing this year. Concordia (Wis.) might as well be just as likely to get to Salem as Wis.-Whitewater
On 2) … I think there are actually some legs to the ‘Mount didn’t use its whole arsenal’ theory. I wouldn’t bring it up if I didn’t think so. For starters, as joelmama noted, the run was working, and it’s the safest way to protect a lead. They passed 14 times the whole game, which is uncharacteristic of their offense, and although Garcon looked ineffective that day trying to play with a broken hand, his performance in the Stagg Bowl was so dominant it certainly isn’t out of the realm of possibility that they held him back — maybe not in a ‘we don’t need him to win’ way, but a ‘we don’t have him today’ way.
Please do not confuse that for disrespect for Fisher’s effort. They gave MUC a stiff test and they were rewarded in the final polls and the ‘07 preaseason polls. That respect has carried over to this season, where voters seem to have been more forgiving to a puzzling (at the time) loss than they were, say, to Wartburg after it lost to Augsburg or Trinity after Rhodes.
So I mean, on one hand, SJF earned more respect losing to Mount Union than it could have by beating almost anyone else. On the other hand, I have seen enough of Mount Union to believe they are that good that they could have done that.
I know it’s sickening to hear the slobbering 24-7, but it’s like the Patriots in the NFL this year. Slobbering or no slobbering, the team keeps things in perspective, from Kehres down, year after year, and will always be hard to beat.
I’m with you and the other guys from the East in the way I have always been … anyone that beats Mount Union makes the season interesting again, because we have drama, we have parity, we have an opening in Salem, etc.
But in the years I have spent around the Purple Raiders and their fans, I have come to appreciate them in this way: They play the game in a way we all should hope to someday play it. Mistakes are few, sloppy football is rare. A team that beats them — I have seen it happen a few times — earns it. And they don’t do anything to misrepresent D3 or make us as a whole not want to be proud of them, even at the same time we’re all gunning for their crown.
I realize it’s not an easy balance to strike. But we are only jocking them after careful consideration
November 14th, 2007 at 12:19 am
To think that UMHB is the Redskins of Div III is just plain nonsense. Perhaps the Cowboys-Patriots game is a slightly better analogy.
November 14th, 2007 at 1:21 am
CJ,
As Gordon mentioned, there are game-by-game predictions coming Friday. That’s been a tradition the past couple years.
Pat, Gordon and I will also look at all four brackets as a whole and list surprises, disappointments and the eventual champ, as has been ATN tradition for as long as I can remember.
Other brief answers to brief questions/comments:
1. dukefinadv, the “sifting through the crap” thing was a twist on what Ric said himself earlier. Although for the record, unlike Howard Eskin and Angelo Cataldi, I don’t get paid any more or any less based on the number of blog comments.
2. SJFF82, I don’t have to call you an idiot, you make a perfectly good case without my help. ‘Preciate the pointers, but I think I’ll do my style the way I do it, whether you think it’s subtle or not.
I also don’t think I claimed you said anything except what I directly quoted out of your mouth. However, my counter-arguments are not limited to your posts because you are not the only Fisher person having this discussion.
3. sjfc81,
Did I attend MUC? Um, if you have paid, oh, I don’t know, a smidge, of attention over the past week, you should be pretty clear on where I went. As for Mount Union, I don’t particuarly like them anymore than, say, St. John Fisher. I have watched them play for the past several years and I am giving my honest opinions. I’m wrong a lot, but I’m right a lot too, and at the very least people seem to respect the opinions because a good amount of thought goes into them. Seems to have worked for me so far.
The fact that I have no axe to grind for Mount Union should lend even more credibility to the opinion.
However you guys want to take the opinion of the SJF-MUC game, go ahead. Mount Union had/has a dangerous passing attack and they threw the ball 14 times against Fisher. And ran for 378 yards. However you want to take it, take it. I don’t think I’ve ever implied that Mount Union took it easy on SJF, but if you look at the Stagg Bowl the next week, it certainly showed what Mount Union can do when they need to throw it, choose to throw it, whatever. St. John Fisher was not so much better in the secondary than Whitewater to account for that kind of difference. In my opinion.
St. John Fisher gained the vast majority of its top-5 cred by playing as well as they played at Mount Union. No one is saying they are terrible, just saying that game perhaps wasn’t as close at it seemed. It was 19-14 in the 4th, if I recall correctly, so it was always in danger. But then Mount dominated that fourth.
The Rowan win was also a big deal for Fisher, but heading into the playoffs, they were a top 15 team. So take that how you want to take it.
You guys are all free to have your opinions and share them. A couple of you are particuarly defensive when we respond. You want to run off at your misinformed lips, be my guest … just take your feedback like a man.
And for the rest of you out there with legitimate questions who like to play nice, I’ll do whatever I can to help educate us both through discussion too.
I didn’t say brief, did I?
November 14th, 2007 at 1:39 am
SJFF82,
Do you even consider what you say before you click submit?
“Comparing the play-off numbers to my argument is apples to oranges. I was simply commenting about the level of play and competition on a broader and year to year basis.”
Playoff results from OAC teams absolutely is relevant to the level of play and competition on a year-to-year basis.
Aside from other non-conference games, what could be more relevant?
If you mean OAC teams against each other rather than against the rest of D3, I’d simply ask who was the last team to beat Mount Union?
Go ahead, look it up. I’ll wait.
Plain and simple, the OAC is not a patsy league. Its runner-up many years would be in the mix for the title in most other elite D3 leagues.
November 14th, 2007 at 1:39 am
You know what,
I love to argue/discuss/what have you … so I am prone to carrying on in these types of discussions, even when it’s not productive.
Bottom line is this: East, the rest of D3 has been dumping on your for years for your lack of Stagg success. (and they mean getting there just as much as winning, FWIW). Now you have the giant in your bracket. Frankly, I think you caught them on the worst year
You want respect? Earn it.
November 14th, 2007 at 2:15 am
Folks,
I will take a different approach than many as I have no connection to ANY Div-3 program as a student, alumni or as a parent. I generally make it to five football games each fall and 25-30 basketball games, all of which I pay to attend.
Based in Chicago, I prefer to head up to WIAC games as generally, you see a real football game even with UWW’s recent dominance. Head to other local conferences, and you might see one of those “truly exciting” D-3 games – such as Beloit vs. anybody. And those are hard to sit through.
Is MUC good for D-3? Personally, I would rather propose that there are two levels of non-scholarship football. The first level would include the Div 1AA non scholarship teams (NEC, Pioneer) and the top 30-40 teams that generally dominate D3 football. In both cases, the schools take winning football very seriously. Most of the rest of D3 football plays it more or less as a club sport. Success on the field is great but not an overwhelming.
Raiderguy states that there are a good number of Ohio colleges “competing for players.” That is true. In general, the scholarship programs scoop up the premier players as there is some value in a paid scholarship. However, at the non-scholarship level, MUC honestly is not competing with the Earlhams and the Oberlins for football players. Students go to those schools to be students and head out for football. Many high school students head to MUC to play football and to attend college in that order. I am not bashing MUC but there are high school star athletes who are undersized who want to play at MUC who probably had NO CLUE as to where Alliance was located at.
When a school has what 100-150 players coming out for non-scholarship program, it is rather unheard of. Of course, most of them are freshmen and many will leave when it becomes evident that they will not play at MUC. Sometimes they head to other D3 programs; often, they move on to less expensive public universities. However, MUC pretty much has the cream of the non-scholarship crop.
A D3 team beating a D3 team is very possible. The notion that a D3 would beat a top D2 team like Chadron State is very unlikely just due to the size and talent levels.
As for UWW, their defense has been outstanding this year, if they can avoid all the stupid penalties and personal fouls. Their offense is potent or sputtering depending on the afternoon. Few of the league games were blowouts and many were settled in the 4th.
That is my post for the year. Good luck.
November 14th, 2007 at 9:33 am
As a MUC fan I would like to see more postings and thoughts on things other than the OAC being a weak conference. I understand that things are different from year to year and Capital may not be as good as the last couple of years but lets take a look back at the last few years since the playoffs were expanded. In years where 2 OAC teams have made the playoffs, the 2nd OAC team is 11-1 against teams other than MUC. Also you can look a few years back and see when John Carroll was in the East bracket as a 7 seed. They won the east only to lose to MUC in the Semi-finals. So let’s move on from this subject because there are plenty of other good storylines to debate. When it comes to the OAC conference their record in the playoffs speaks for itself.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:31 am
jlawrence…your idea regarding integrating the 1-AA “non-scholarship” schools at the top Division III schools is intriguing. Somehow this would have to be determined, but my guess is that you would look at practice time, etc. to set those limits.
But a Division III school beating a non-scholarship I-AA school is not unheard of. UW-Platteville beat Drake for a number of years for instance. The differences between the programs probably isn’t all that great.
BTW, you also hit it right on the head regarding UWW this year. The defense has carried this team because without the Jacobs / Stanley connection, they havn’t been able to stretch the field.
November 14th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
I’m curious about the I-AA non-scholarship comments. Do you think these schools are I-AA in football because they give scholarships in their other sports? In other words, if their basketball teams compete at D-I and they give scholarships to those players, does that disqualify them from being D-III in football? Or, do these schools not give scholarships at all, and just choose to participate at that level because they want to, or because they have a conference affiliation that demands that? There is “No” D-IAA in any other sport than football, so i was just curious. Any thoughts?
November 14th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
“But a Division III school beating a non-scholarship I-AA school is not unheard of.”
—-
Or occasionally beat a d-1aa scholarship team … re: UWLX over South Dakota State last season.
November 14th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
vhwon Says:
November 14th, 2007 at 12:19 am
To think that UMHB is the Redskins of Div III is just plain nonsense. Perhaps the Cowboys-Patriots game is a slightly better analogy.
vhwon,
I was not insinuating that UMHB is the Redskins of D3. The point I was making is that after watching that football game, a rematch may be closer, but UMHB would be very unlikely to win. Were you there? The UWW dominated the line of scrimmage on both sides of tha ball. That is what forced the turnovers. UMHB could play it smarter (they made some of the stupidest penalties I’ve ever witnessed. Including jumping offsides again and again in crucial situations) and cleaner (6 turnovers). However, when a team is mismatched in the trenches, a football game is very hard to win.
I’m assuming UMHB would not play stupid football again. I’m assumic their qb won’t panic like he did the last time around. And I’m still seeing UWW winning. If they play again, and UMHB wins, I will be the first to get on here and admit I was wrong. But when I read an opinion that the result would be “different”, I have to ask myself a couple of questions. Was that person even at the game? What is their definition of “different”?
November 14th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
Mainjack, the NCAA does not permit a school to be a separate classification from D-III except for those few sports where they have been “grandfathered”, e.g., Johns Hopkins Lacrosse or Colorado College Men’s Ice Hockey.
Ye, they have chosen to give athetics scholarshhips in other sports, but not football.
November 14th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
bleedpurple,
I can not answer for the original posting that prompted your Redskins comparison. I was not physically at the game, but I did watch the game live on the internet. The game was determined by turnovers and stupid penalties by UMHB. Honestly, UWW did not win that game as much as UMHB lost it. No excuses for the Cru, but they played a very bad game. UWW came to play, UMHB looked tired from the flight the previous day. They seem to abandon all what was winning games before. They passed the ball way too much. I know I am playing Monday morning quarterback here (weeks later), but seriously aren’t we all doing just that with our postings.
November 14th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Thanks Ralph
November 14th, 2007 at 6:38 pm
jlawrence01 – Your post earlier this morning…….paragraphs 4 & 5 were spot on. I’ve never heard it synthesized quite like that but you are 99.99999% correct!!
November 14th, 2007 at 7:54 pm
re: Div I-aa vs Div III.
Ursinsus ( Centennial Conference) has beaten LaSalle I-AA 4 yrs in a row.
But LaSalle is a very week team in Phila- Home of the power House(haha) Temple.
November 14th, 2007 at 8:17 pm
“MUC honestly is not competing with the Earlhams and the Oberlins for football players.”
That is probably a correct statement 99% of the time. Of course, neither is Capital, Ohio Northern, Baldwin-Wallace or John Carroll.
While you guys sitting on the outside find whatever you can to bash what Mount Union has done, I would like to point out a couple things.
First, Mount Union is not the only D3 football team to have 150 kids on its roster. Some schools have limits as do some conferences. For instance the OAC has rules for recruiting that are tougher than the D3 rules, meaning if an OAC school wants a kid that is also being looked at by a Washington & Jeffereson or Wittenberg, for example, they can not do some of the things those schools can do.
Second, I hope you do realize that it is easier and less expensive to manage a roster of 80 or 100 than 150. Mount Union does not lie to any kid. They know where they stand. Do kids transfer? Yes, but here again, the OAC has rules that are tougher than D3, so typically when an OAC kid transfers, he does so to a school outside the conference.
Anyway, Mount Union has a no cut rule. Anyone that wants to put in the effort makes the team and dresses for regular season home games. If you think Mount Union throws 150 kids against the wall with the hopes 22 stud football players stick you are not giving the program its due. I am not saying you think that, just making that statement. Mount Union, and the kid, knows his chances of ever playing. So if a kid wants to be a part of Mount Union football, knowing he will never get on the field, who is anyone else to say that is a bad thing.
I assure you the big roster is a difficult thing in many ways. They lose kids every year in the recruiting process, including a stud linebacker that turned out to be All-OAC for another school as an example, for the sole reason that some kids are overwhelmed by the size of the roster and don’t think they’ll ever get the chance to play. So I think the no cut rule is admorable when it would be much easier to not have it. But again, it is a point of target for a program that doesn’t have many. Just like transfers used to be. But if you listed the stud D1 football players that transfered to an OAC school in order of how much they contributed to their new team, you would be down the list before you get a Purple Raider. So now we move on to the roster size.
November 14th, 2007 at 9:26 pm
I believe it was mandated a few years ago that DI schools had to have football at the DI-aa level. That’s why Georgetown and UConn and poor LaSalle have football programs
November 14th, 2007 at 9:59 pm
PA_wesleyfan :
UCONN isn’t too unhappy with their football team now !! And they’re not D-1AA anymore !!
November 14th, 2007 at 10:18 pm
If I recall correctly, the difference between I-A and I-AA is not just scholarships, it is also the size of the attendance at the games. I-A schools must average 15,000 in home attendance and offer a minimum number of scholarships. I-AA schools do not have either of these requirements.
I should also note that I-AA schools may give scholarships if they wish. It’s just that it is not required like it is in I-A.
November 14th, 2007 at 10:32 pm
Keith, Fisher / MUC – 2006… Any chance we might give just a little credit to All-American Steve Stepnik, who held All-American Pierre Garcon to just one catch (out of the 14 thrown by MUC that day)…
You’ve got an offensive line like MUC has, and a Running Back like Nate Kmic, certainly you’re going to run, and run, and run. We could not stop him period… We tried… We played our hearts out… They were just too good… And, they’re even better this year… Hopefully we’ll be traveling back to Alliance again in a few weeks, and ya know what, we’ll try again if we get that chance…
Folks, lets everyone realize that Mount Union is the top dog; they are simply awesome! In my mind, if we can get there, we’ve had a heck of a season… One other thing, MUC & Larry Kehres show a lot of class, and the fans were super…
November 14th, 2007 at 10:36 pm
I shoud have said that the schools have to have a football program no lower than D1-aa I remember G-town starting at DIII and moving up over a four yr period
November 14th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
We gave him All-American credit, SJFCard — is that enough?
Please keep in mind, though, that Garcon was playing hurt and was often not even on the field in the second half.
November 14th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
SJF,
If I recall correctly Garcon was injured. And from what I saw on the sidelines at the game he was trying to avoid using his injured hand as much as possible.
That said, SJF did play their hearts out in the game and I applaud them.
Yeah, What Pat said. He beat me to it.
November 14th, 2007 at 10:44 pm
Garcon seemed Ok in the Stagg Bowl…
November 14th, 2007 at 11:39 pm
Please don’t take my comments regarding MUC as criticism of the institution. The type of success that they have enjoyed serves as a magnet to any student-athlete who is seriously interested in playing D-3 football. Just like a Broadway curtain call brings out 500 actors for maybe 5 roles, their success attracts a lot of attention. The non-players will eventually transfer to another D3 school or will give up their hope to play football in college. (Personally, I don’t see how student athletes can afford to play a sport with the cost of education but that is another topic.)
Any claim that the OAC is “MUC and the nine dwarfs” is not credible. if MUC would move on, there would probably be two playoff teams among the remaining institutions each and every year. OAC teams, in my opinion, have two large benefits over other D3 leagues. First, the level of high school football in Ohio is pretty high and unlike other football states (like TX or CA), and there are a lot of football schools throughout Ohio. Second, it seems to me that the OAC colleges have a good record of coaches like Trassel at Baldwin-Wallace and Kehres at MUC that are willing to stay and develop a program.
As a fan, I would rather see MUC schedule a game against a Dayton or a Drake than have a 50-0 romp over a lesser team. The biggest weakness of the D3 system is the number of one sided blowouts. If I look at the Chicago Tribune sports page, as many as 60% of the NAIA and D3 games are settles by 30+ points.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:09 am
And I was walking around in a short-sleeved shirt while working the sidelines. Adrenaline can mask some pain, but not all and I am sure that he was far more healthy after a week from that game than he was in the SJF game. And then there’s the “hide the major weapon” shell game that might have been played in order to psych out whoever MUC was going to face in the Stagg Bowl.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:11 am
PA_wesleyfan … it isn’t actually a requirement that D-1 schools have a football team at any level. Two programs that I can cite are UNC-Charlotte (Atlantic 10 in all sports) which has never had football, and East Tennessee State, which dropped football a few years ago and had to switch affiliation from the Southern Conference to the Atlantic Sun. I’m sure there are probably others, but those are the two I definitely know of.
I’m happy to see my Tigers in the playoffs after being close for several years and I’m hopeful that we make a good showing in Dover on Saturday. I think the offense has proven that they can hold their own in most games, but the defense is really going to have to step up beyond anything they’ve shown so far this season and I’m not sure the playoffs are the place to expect it. Still, it will be fun to see how they do.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:16 am
SJFCard — if you remember the Stagg Bowl itself and not just the highlights you’d recall how they used him a lot differently than in previous weeks. They retailored their passing game to minimize his injury.
November 15th, 2007 at 6:17 am
Bottom line on the Mount Union playoff run last year was that the Raiders starting senior QB and a guy that played great against Whitewater in the previous Stagg Bowl, Mike Jorris, was playing with an injury and was not going to be healthy for the rest of the playoffs. Micheli, who had split time with Jorris throughout the year, had become known as the running QB, because when he was in there that’s what he did. He could throw the ball, which Whitewater found out, but they just hadn’t shown that side of him all year.
Against Whitewater, Micheli was 18 of 22 for 202 yards, three throwing and one rushing TD and no int’s. He was the game’s MVP. In the regular season his complete stats in 10 games: 62 of 82 for 785 yards, 6 TD’s and no int’s. He took probably 35 to 40% of the regular season snaps and averaged 6 of 8 passes for 78 yds per game.
In the playoffs prior to Whitewater, and now he is taking 70% of the snaps, especially after week one when Jorris re-injured himself, he completed 15 of 24 passes for 169 in FOUR playoff games! Wins of 49-0 over Hope, 35-3 over Wheaton, 17-14 over Capital and 26-14 over St. John Fisher. And in the first game he was 8 of 11 for 108 yds, then 2 of 6, 3 of 4 and 2 of 3 before a 18 for 22 performance in the Stagg.
On top of that, Pierre Garcon, as already talked about, was playing with a broken hand and they did not know how effective he would be in the Stagg Bowl right up until pre-game warm-ups.
No one is saying Mount couldn’t throw against them except for Fisher when the stats clearly show they didn’t try to throw the ball for three games, all tough games, especially the last two, against quality opponents, before the championship game.
Does anyone really think the kid couldn’t throw the ball all year and particularly in the four playoff wins and then all of a sudden go 18 of 22 for 202 yards, a nearly perfect performance, against arguably the best defense he’d faced?
The Raiders ran the ball for 302 yds and passed it for 28 against Capital in a three point win in the Regional Final but Capital knows enough to not say Mount couldn’t throw the ball.
The bottom line is Fisher was a great team and they played a great, great game. Especially for their first trip to Alliance, you have to credit the coaching staff for having them focused on the task and being able to push all the other stuff aside. He did that better than most have.
But Mount Union, knowing Whitewater was probably looming for the championship, and knowing what Kmic did against them the prior year, wanted the Warhawks to believe if they shut down Kmic they would shut down the offense. And that’s what the films showed them. They hid the fact Micheli could throw the football. Against Fisher, as was the case during the playoff run, they did not throw the ball because they didn’t want to, not because they couldn’t. Here is there paragraph’s from my game story on the Fisher game:
“Up 19-14 with 8:04 to play, the Raiders marched for a touchdown on a nine-play, 80-yard drive, each play a run by Kmic. His carries broke down like this: 5, 33, 8, 1, 8, 8, 7, 5, and 5. The final five yards gave Kmic his third touchdown and gave the Purple & White a 12 point lead with 5:56 remaining. Mount Union needed only to convert one third down on the drive and that was for one yard. The Cardinals knew Kmic was getting the ball, they just couldn’t stop him.
Fisher could not get a first down after the kick and when Mount Union’s offense went back onto the field with 3:56 remaining, it did not come off until the handshakes were done and plans were being made for a trip to the national championship game next week. The final drive consisted of seven more plays, all runs by Kmic.
All told, the Raiders had the ball twice in the fourth quarter. All 16 plays were rushes by Kmic, producing 109 yards, 8:23 off the clock and a touchdown.”
So what do you think Whitewater thought they had to do to stop Mount Union? Again, Fisher gave the Raiders a great ball game. No question about that and no debating that. But the reason they did not throw the ball was more about them than anyone else. Sorry this was so long.
November 15th, 2007 at 9:11 am
Look people! Regardless if Mount Union wins everything this year or not. You can’t say anything if they do. If you want the trophy? Then beat the Big Dog on the block. St. Johns did! They are a well oiled machine and win in all different ways. But they are beatable. Just need to out coack Larry and out play his players.
Now as far as the OAC being weak. If they are Mount Union still has to play them. Now take this stat for example of how weak the OAC is as a conference. There have been 35 Stagg Bowls and the OAC has been represented 15 times by teams from that conference and one year they had two. Yes Mount Union has been there 10 times, but how can anyone say this is a weak conference?
Good Luck to all teams in the tournament
November 15th, 2007 at 11:34 am
Grizfan – Yes you lost to Wabash by a 2 point conversion, but if (and that is a big IF) you would have made that and, if it would have been tied, then Franklin would NOT have tried an onsides kick and the LG would not have lost their QB, that was “Having a career day” your quote not mine. We at Wabash think it might have been an Average Day. And whos to say Franklin would have won in OT. That is “Why you play the game” – Herm Edwards. As it turns out, we are not as bad off as it seems with missing Huff, now we know who our QB will be for the next 2 years. Lets hope that the re-match can happen at the Regional Finals @ C’ville. But first we both need to be 1-0 on Sunday.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
blah blah blah Mt Union wins again. It’s always the same debate this time of year. Is there a point when the Mt Union dynasty is NOT a good thing for D3 football? And if so how many more consecutive chanmpionships before we reach that point?
November 15th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
Just think, this coming Sunday we will lose half the posters.
If Mt Union has built such a strong program why don’t other teams try to duplicate the system. Sure, some schools want to stress academics more so than sports, but if a school and it’s Alumni want what Mt. Union has, work to get it. Don’t complain about them go out and beat them.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Hey guys, I am attempting to find a discussion somewhere on the internet that has to do with Mt. Union football. Preferably, it would have 200+ responses, most of which discussed the Purple Raiders. Any suggestions?
November 15th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
Ric: You need to post that on the East Region page. That was a perfect explanation of what the SJF folks can’t seem to see.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
jimjearsa–
I think you’re missing the point of the debate regarding MUC. There are plenty of teams who WANT the trophy, but no-one seems to be ABLE to beat them, as the 4 losses in 13 years would point out.
The basic question isn;t whether or not MUC is doing anything wrong or if it’s unfair–because I don’t think anyone here could say that. The question is, on the whole, for D-III football, is one team winning year after year a good thing? If MUC wins this year, that’s nine titles in 12 years. For a sport that functions on the outside of most sports’ fans minds, the Stagg Bowl is the only D-III game to get press (This year’s Williams’ game nonwithstanding) If that game almost always features the same team, at what point do you risk sending a message of “The rest of our teams aren’t good enough to compete?” Sure, most of us onthis board know of all the talent at schools like St. John’s, etc. But the general public and media at large don’t because pretty much every year, MUC is polishing off another 14-0 or 15-0 season with a championship. At some point, it reaches a stage where the story is the same each year and people can lose interest
November 15th, 2007 at 5:20 pm
BRIGHTGUY:
Cool … someone that posts something BESIDES a Mount Union / SJF debate !! It’s been the same stuff from the same 5 people for 5 days !! Give it a rest !! You are correct … who’s to say Franklin wins in OT. But after coming from two scores down in the final minutes there was some FC momentum. I, of course, would have loved to have had the opportunity to play extra. Kudos to the Little Giants for a great season that might have been spoiled on that one on-sde kick. What’s Huff doing in there anyway ? The Wabash fans that day were great … best we saw all year — even in the rain. I do have to question the “average day” by Huff …. he set the Wabash records that day that Jake Knott had owned for both passing yards and total yards. That my friend is NOT just an “average day” for anyone !! Let’s take care of business and I’ll be looking forward to seeing the red and white again — hopefully in a few weeks !! Until then – Wabash Always Fights … and GO GRIZ !
Grizfan – Yes you lost to Wabash by a 2 point conversion, but if (and that is a big IF) you would have made that and, if it would have been tied, then Franklin would NOT have tried an onsides kick and the LG would not have lost their QB, that was “Having a career day” your quote not mine. We at Wabash think it might have been an Average Day. And whos to say Franklin would have won in OT. That is “Why you play the game” – Herm Edwards. As it turns out, we are not as bad off as it seems with missing Huff, now we know who our QB will be for the next 2 years. Lets hope that the re-match can happen at the Regional Finals @ C’ville. But first we both need to be 1-0 on Sunday.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:13 pm
vhwon,
You are right. We are all just expressing our opinions. That is what is fun about this forum. I love that it all gets played out on Saturdays. Good luck to UMHB! I have no doubt that they can play much better than they did against UWW. I will be rooting for UMHB to win Saturday. It will be fun to see how all the games turn out.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:27 pm
bleedpurple,
I concur. This is fun….cheering on your favorite school while having the utmost respect for all those in the playoffs and the fans that support them. These great teams are there for a reason. Good luck as well kind sir.
It is kind of funny, I “bleedpurple” as well, but with a little bit of Gold in there. It will be a great Saturday. I look forward to cheering on my Crusaders live against Trinity and coming home to check the scores on D3Football.com afterwards. Gotta love it!!!!!
November 15th, 2007 at 10:36 pm
Ric,
That was about the most well articulated and accurate description of MUC that I’ve read-thank you. Micelli played like Steve Young and Garcon was unstoppable. As for somebody beating MUC, I’ve posted before that they just seem to play almost mistake free in the big game. Take last year’s championship, if you saw the game, you have to agree that UWW had their chances, despite the offensive balance of MUC. UWW simply didn’t convert the plays-the made the Mistakes that MUC didn’t. Their QB-Jacobs, had recievers open and simply missed them, which is too bad because he did have a great career. I don’t think MUC held the advantage on talent, they held the advantage on execution. UWW had the players to beat them last year, but couldn’t execute MUC-like. Bottom line is, MUC can be beaten, but it takes more than skilled players and X’s and O’s, it requires the team to match MUC’s ability to execute.
November 16th, 2007 at 3:13 am
It is great to see all this debate – that is what makes D3 football so great! D3 football.com is awesome – wish they had it when I was playing.
I am surprised to see the lack of respect for MUC and the overall lack of D3 football knowledge from many of the east fans. History is a great teacher, and some of you seem to already forget the accomplishments of MUC. When I think of a D3 football dynasty – there are only a few: The Augustana teams of the mid 80’s is one, and the incredible run MUC is on right now is another. It is great to be gung-ho about the playoffs and your team, but I wouldn’t talk trash about MUC or their conference, until you go into Alliance and beat them.
I am a former IC Bomber player from the mid 80’s and I bleed Bomber blue. I said OH NO when I saw the brackets, but then I said, if you want to be the best, then you have to play the best. What a great test for IC to have to travel and play MUC. Coach Welch will have the bombers ready – they will have to play a perfect game to win, but they are hot right now. I will be rooting very hard for them Saturday. In my days, we played 2 x D2 games each year, to make us better and to keep us successful in the playoffs. If you look at the current non-conference schedules for the teams in the east, it is not impressive at all. The only way to get better is to play better competition. Why couldn’t the east teams schedule W&J, Trinity, MHB, UWW, Central, Salisbury….& there are many more to choose from. This would help the east in the later rounds of the playoffs. At least from what I read SJF is doing a home and home with MUC over the next 2 years – right? If this is true, nice job.
SJF has made alot of progress in the east in a short period of time (awesome facilities too), but they need to first take care of their first round game (another hot team). And if you get the chance to go play MUC, then let’s see how that game turns out, before you start talking trash. You have a really good program and I hope you get a chance to revenge your loss to MUC, but let’s at least try to act like you have been there before – with some class. Nothing personal….
I congratulate all of you for your D3 football passion. Good luck this week.
Bombers798891: Nice insight on the blog, you know your history.
Go Bombers!!!!!
November 16th, 2007 at 11:41 am
I don’t put much into the brackets because. Sure we may have questions answered and besides it boils down to two winning teams playing each other with the winner moving on. Beat up on the guy in your face and perform your job and the winner will come out at the end. Enjoy the games and share in the fun that they have just from playing the game they love for the sake of the game.
Go Raiders.